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A Kurdziel  
#1 Posted : 01 April 2019 15:51:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A strange thought has started nagging me: when might it be acceptable to reduce the level of Health and Safety protection offered. I am imagining a scenario such as a company has insisted for as long as anybody can remember that people working with particular substances should work in a fumecupboard and that they should also wear RPE. A new H&S manager arrives and decides to actually measure the effectiveness of the LEV and find that it, by itself, reduces the exposure well below any exposure limits and that the RPE does  not contribute significantly to the effectiveness of the controls for that process. It would I assume, be acceptable to remove the requirements to wear RPE. Nevertheless someone could argue that even though the RPE has limited value as a control it might have some value as a control and that it should be retained as since it could be applied, it should be applied.

 

I think that they would be wrong  to go for a belt and braces’  approach but now we have to move to another scenario:  A work room is being redesigned and it is suggested that a hand-wash basin is removed as it takes up to much space.  The basin was installed following a risk assessment that suggested that it was needed as part of a hygiene control strategy.  It is suggested that that it could be replaced by providing wet wipes instead. The Health and Safety manager contends that the wet wipes are less effective that the hand-wash facility, while the operational people say that a) nobody actually uses the hand basin, b) it is  faff to a maintain c) and it takes up space which could be used for something more productive. Would it be acceptable to remove the handbasin following a “review” of the risk assessment?

When is it acceptable to reduce the controls being applied? What sort of justifications should be used to do this?  

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 01 April 2019 19:27:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

"Bubble Wrap" what can we do (throw everything from the catalogue at it) versus what is reasonably practicable to do. If the engineering controls are demonstrated as suitable and continue to be so why PPE? More importantly is the on-going cost of PPE justified against a minimal benefit? That said I have worked where we had fume cupboards but the task involved transfer of materials to equipment on adjacent work benches so here it was a lack of proper engineering (too small a fume cupboard) that necessitated PPE use.

Regarding your wash basin scenario what is the contaminant necessitating provision - is it supposed to be used to prevent contamination of door handles? Wet wipes are not a solution in anything other than a domestic environment, generate unecessary waste and when disposed of cause many environmental issues. Re-visit the RA and work out what was the intention at time of installation - it could be you don't need a basin big enough for forearms merely a corner hand wash. Justification to remove could include eliminating an unused dead leg in a water supply (just make sure it is capped at the start of the supply spur and not where the sink gets ripped out).

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 01 April 2019 19:27:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

"Bubble Wrap" what can we do (throw everything from the catalogue at it) versus what is reasonably practicable to do. If the engineering controls are demonstrated as suitable and continue to be so why PPE? More importantly is the on-going cost of PPE justified against a minimal benefit? That said I have worked where we had fume cupboards but the task involved transfer of materials to equipment on adjacent work benches so here it was a lack of proper engineering (too small a fume cupboard) that necessitated PPE use.

Regarding your wash basin scenario what is the contaminant necessitating provision - is it supposed to be used to prevent contamination of door handles? Wet wipes are not a solution in anything other than a domestic environment, generate unecessary waste and when disposed of cause many environmental issues. Re-visit the RA and work out what was the intention at time of installation - it could be you don't need a basin big enough for forearms merely a corner hand wash. Justification to remove could include eliminating an unused dead leg in a water supply (just make sure it is capped at the start of the supply spur and not where the sink gets ripped out).

neil88  
#4 Posted : 02 April 2019 05:21:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
neil88

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

A strange thought has started nagging me: when might it be acceptable to reduce the level of Health and Safety protection offered.


  • When the recorded risks were not commensurate with the actual risk of the activity.  E.g. (1) a new work scope that wasn’t done before or (2) the risk assessment team lacked the subject matter expertise

  • When the controls are applied in blanket fashion to similar but not identical work activities.  e.g.  you may have a procedure which state the control measures for confined space, but doesn’t differentiate the fact you have may have several types of confined space on site with differing hazards  and levels of risk (e.g. 1m deep trench vs. oil storage tank).

  • When your risk controls are not reasonably practicable / in line with the industry standards and are you are uncompetitive as a result.
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A Kurdziel on 02/04/2019(UTC)
neil88  
#5 Posted : 02 April 2019 05:49:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
neil88

  • If the actual published risk level of something changes.   e.g.  you may have a policy in place to forbid all business travel to Nigeria, but then FCO/iSOS downgrade the risk rating of that country due to improved political stability or whatever. 
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A Kurdziel on 02/04/2019(UTC)
andybz  
#6 Posted : 02 April 2019 07:15:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

Google "reverse ALARP" and you will see this discussed.  The document from the Office of Nuclear Regulator (ONR) gives a good description.

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A Kurdziel on 02/04/2019(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#7 Posted : 02 April 2019 07:46:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

This happens quite a lot in the process industries:

Change of process conditions (lower temps & pressures, less hazardous material)

New/different equipment installed

Change of plant layouts

being a few reasons

chris42  
#8 Posted : 02 April 2019 09:01:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

IMHO for what it is worth, there is room to downgrade control measures if following further investigation, it has been determined that something is not necessary. You may set up some controls awaiting further test (and then never get around to the further testing or are prevented from spending money on such things). You do, as you say, get a sort of custom and practice and no one knows why something is done. The problem with RA’s (other peoples) is that they list a hazard, whatever the perceived risks is and what controls are considered necessary. However, they rarely explain exactly why the controls have been added. That exists only in the head of the person who did the RA. That could be a head of department who has had some training or a fully-fledged H&S professional. We often farm out the “day to day” assessment to others and we would not be able to do them all, but I would hope we would also do a better job, and consider more than those who it is not the main part of their job.

In your scenario for instance was the person considering that the extraction may not be adequate and so the mask would protect against any fugitive emissions (i.e. recent welding mild steel inside comments from HSE) OR were they thinking of the mask as a secondary control should the extraction fail (and give them enough time to safely deal with the situation).

However, it does not matter when you review a RA, it is the here and now with current level of legislation and guidance and general knowledge. So, if you were seeing this process for the first time what would your recommendations be. Having seen your posts over the years, I know you already know the answer.

In the other scenario, just because people don’t use the sink does not mean they shouldn’t. Is within the current RA’s/ SWP’s anything that says once you have done “x” ensure you thoroughly wash your hands. Does using a wet wipe provide sufficient cleanliness to the hands and remove any contaminant sufficiently. It seems at the moment they are neither washing their hands or using wipes. Plus, you will have as previously noted cost of waste disposal and cost of buying (and someone’s time to ensure stocks, and don’t forget everyone’s preference on scent) – surly soap and water is cheaper. The decision should not be made on “if we don’t have the sink, we can fit an “xyz” gadget in that space”.

Chris

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A Kurdziel on 02/04/2019(UTC)
chris.packham  
#9 Posted : 02 April 2019 10:50:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I would start by reviewing the original risk assessment. Is it still valid or does it need revising? For example:

"The basin was installed following a risk assessment that suggested that it was needed as part of a hygiene control strategy"

What was the hygiene risk and is it still prevalent and such that it justifies hand washing. Remember that hand washing unnecessarily presents a risk of skin damage. If your risk assessment shows that it is still needed then management need to ensure that the hand hygiene standard practice is complied with. If it shows that there is no real need for hand washing, then get rid of the basin. Alternatively, if professional advice confirms that hand wipes are adequate (in my experience this is not as simple as many assume) then go for them. However, if hand washing is not being done how sure will you be that hand wipes will be used?

In other words, always start with the risk assessment, make sure it is still valid, then base your decision on this.

Chris

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A Kurdziel on 02/04/2019(UTC)
Dave5705  
#10 Posted : 02 April 2019 11:50:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

I agree Andy. You do not have to justify the removal of the sink, you have to justify it's use. If it's use is required (ie the HS Manager is right and wet wipes won't do) then you leave it in, if it is not needed take it out. BUT if it is needed then questions need to be asked as to why it isn't being used. If it isn't needed then questions need to be asked as to how you can ensure wet wipes are going to be used.

I think.

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A Kurdziel on 02/04/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 02 April 2019 12:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

No Answer(didn't really expect one) but lots of food for thought.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses 

CptBeaky  
#12 Posted : 02 April 2019 13:13:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

What about should a RA review suggest that the control is now creating a greater hazard than it solves? For example, is the ergonimic risk of the basin (bumping into it, issues with a dirty sink etc.) greater than the improvements to the benefits it currently provides.

This is slightly more complex as we are talking about a redesign of a work room, so in reality you could just create a new risk assessment regarding the new space, arguing that the old one is now not relevant. This new RA might show up that a (not THE) sink is not required to control the hygiene, and the wet wipes would be suitable and sufficient.

I assume, though, this is a hypothetical, as I would never introduce wet wipes. Too many allygen issues.

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A Kurdziel on 03/04/2019(UTC)
Dave5705  
#13 Posted : 02 April 2019 13:36:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post
No Answer(didn't really expect one)

Oh. What was the question again? Do you mean, can you 'undo' a previous risk assessment's recommended control? Of course you can IMHO. Cost and need to control are considerations in ALARP, and in your example the existing sink is taking up space which is a cost (if it is needed for something else) so strike one, if it is not needed to achieve the control you require that's strike 2. No additional control required, so not needed. CBA isn't it? Or am I on the wrong track?

Edited by user 02 April 2019 13:37:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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CptBeaky on 02/04/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 02 April 2019 13:39:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

That's an answer!

Thanks

Xavier123  
#15 Posted : 03 April 2019 11:24:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

It's a great question. Someone alluded to reverse ALARP which is where CBA can be applied incorrectly. Removal of a control may still leave activity within tolerable levels of safety within a new CBA but if doing so is genuinely reducing safety standards that would be inconsistent with application of 'reasonably practicable'. Sacrifice has to be significantly disproportionate to benefit and should start from presumption of provision.

However, I'm quite used to seeing over the top safety requirements that demonstrably add no (or detract from) safety - they form the proverbial rod for the back of the company involved. Once set they can become hard to roll back on owing to fear of the above perception.

Chris P suggested the start again approach i.e. ignore what's there now, what is actually needed to control risk? Then do gap analysis as separate step. If done properly, that wouldn't be reverse ALARP to my mind.

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A Kurdziel on 03/04/2019(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#16 Posted : 03 April 2019 12:08:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Reverse ALARP arguments will fail when used in COMAH reports etc.

However I have always thought that the 'problem' with risk assessment is that it can be too subjective.

So its not really 'down grading safety' rather 'following a risk assessment review, the risks have changed due to [insert reasons], the recommendations are ......'

So its not down grading safety, its ageeing the risk profile has changed ........... different don't you see....!!

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A Kurdziel on 03/04/2019(UTC)
biker1  
#17 Posted : 03 April 2019 12:30:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

An interesting example of controls occured in my plant management days (before my h&s days), where I inherited a blanket hard hat rule from a previous manager. However, this was unpopular and becoming difficult to enforce. Before cracking the whip, I assessed the situation and concluded that operators would get adequate protection from bump caps instead. These are a lot more comfortable to wear, and gained instant acceptance. Problem solved and eveyone is happy.

Some years later, in my consultancy days, I got into an argument with the MD of a company who laid cables and pipelines. Following a freak accident, he had imposed a rule that everyone wears hard hats all of the time. However, I pointed out to him that many of his employees were jointers, who spent most of the time bent over cables in shallow trenches, so a hard hat wasn't really of much use to them (apart from the problems keeping them on). What he needed to do was get the various jobs risk assessed, and decide on suitable controls on the basis of this. This went down like a lead balloon, so we had to agree to differ.

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webstar on 03/04/2019(UTC)
Dave5705  
#18 Posted : 03 April 2019 12:53:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Understood, and Ian is right, you are not downgrading safety if the sink does not provide a layer of safety and in this instance (sink not or RPE not needed because there is NO benefit, not because it is not being used but because it does not need to be used) then there is no benefit to the control so it is not needed.

That isn't reverse ALARP  where you might be tempted to remove controls until you reach what you judge to be a reasonable exposure or safety level, this is simply not providing something because it has no benefit at all. To me, that is just common sense. The question was asked in an imaginary scenario, and we are told to assume there is no benefit. (Why would you put a sink where it was not needed?)

If there is a benefit, then, of course, ALARP says keep the control. And I agree, if the sink provides any other benefit, like being available for use in an emergency skin exposure and there is not one near enough to provide the same level of benefit, it would be foolish to remove it, and lets be honest, it is not hard to suggest that available RPE would reduce the risk in the event of fugitive emissions (I love that expression - a great name for a band!) or sudden extraction failure.

But you can remove controls if they have no benefit. You are not trying to justify a cost with the CBA, you are simply weighing up that there is no point in the cost if there is no benefit. IMHO

Edited by user 03 April 2019 12:55:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

chris.packham  
#19 Posted : 03 April 2019 13:35:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I tend almost always when visiting a site for the first time
or when asked to review a specific task to start by doing my own risk
assessment. The reason for this is simple. Due to the complexity, myths and
misinformation in my particular field (mainly a specific sector of occupational
health) it is almost a given that my risk assessment will differ significantly
from the one that was in place. One example: in a large number of cases where
gloves are being worn these are not providing the protection that the employer assumes they are getting. (How many on this forum have done ‘in-use’ testing?)

Chris

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