Originally Posted by: Svick1984

Hi all, I have a query about rooftop walkways and fall arrest systems. Basically, we need to access our silo to put a camera in it (to measure the build up of glass sludge) so we can determine how often they need to be drained and cleaned out. Whilst access to it is fairly simple (use of a an approximately 10m fixed, hooped ladder - old, installed pre 2005 I believe - that leads directly to a metal rooftop walkway), the camera has to be lowered into the silo so we can perform the recording. However, I'm unsure whether or not a fall arrest system will need to be worn during any or all of the process? As far as I know, the HSE doesn't seem to have much guidance in the way of hooped ladders apart from RR258, but seemed a little inconclusive about how effective (or ineffective) they are in conjunction with the use of FAS. ALso, with regards WAHR and fixed ladders, there is no specific guidance (?) and just aims to reduce the risk and consequences of a fall by measures to control or prevent falls from height. I don't know if they are even suitable attachment points even if someone was to wear a FAS. As for the walkway itself, it prevents falls through use of the guardrail, but is this sufficient or do we need to actual incorporate the use of FAS? Thanks.

Hooped ladders are a mean of access and not a working platform. These themselves should be on an inspection regime. Sounds as though they are not. Metal roof, is it in good condition, is it weight baring (How do you know?) Is the means of access the correct one? Maybe use a MEWP. 

You need to think about collective fall prevention before personal!! Then you want to think about fall restraint and not fall arrest, anchor points again need tested in conformance with the standard. 

Sounds like a dodgy "DO-IT" you need to think carefully and get the appropriate level of advice.

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1

...........you need to think carefully and get the appropriate level of advice.

Good advice.

Regards

it you are going to be regularly accessing the top of the silo, i would initially have both the fixed ladder and roof walkway thoroughly examined by a competent contractor.

Once it has been given the green light and is deemed fit for purpose I would install a latchway system for both the ladder and walkway and use a simple fall prevention harness and lanyard.

Maybe a bit over the top, however, you should also consider carrying out a RA and consider the competence and type of worker who will be going up there.......It may save a lot of pain in the long run

If I have read the post correctly, using a fall restraint system will depend on the platform width and/or whether there is any edge protection to prevent a fall. You will have to consider the access to the silo, how easy or difficult is it to put the camera down the silo and is there any risk of a person falling into it?  

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

Hi all, I have a query about rooftop walkways and fall arrest systems. Basically, we need to access our silo to put a camera in it (to measure the build up of glass sludge) so we can determine how often they need to be drained and cleaned out. Whilst access to it is fairly simple (use of a an approximately 10m fixed, hooped ladder - old, installed pre 2005 I believe - that leads directly to a metal rooftop walkway), the camera has to be lowered into the silo so we can perform the recording. However, I'm unsure whether or not a fall arrest system will need to be worn during any or all of the process? As far as I know, the HSE doesn't seem to have much guidance in the way of hooped ladders apart from RR258, but seemed a little inconclusive about how effective (or ineffective) they are in conjunction with the use of FAS. ALso, with regards WAHR and fixed ladders, there is no specific guidance (?) and just aims to reduce the risk and consequences of a fall by measures to control or prevent falls from height. I don't know if they are even suitable attachment points even if someone was to wear a FAS. As for the walkway itself, it prevents falls through use of the guardrail, but is this sufficient or do we need to actual incorporate the use of FAS? Thanks.

Hooped ladders are a mean of access and not a working platform. These themselves should be on an inspection regime. Sounds as though they are not. Metal roof, is it in good condition, is it weight baring (How do you know?) Is the means of access the correct one? Maybe use a MEWP. 

You need to think about collective fall prevention before personal!! Then you want to think about fall restraint and not fall arrest, anchor points again need tested in conformance with the standard. 

Sounds like a dodgy "DO-IT" you need to think carefully and get the appropriate level of advice.

Thanks for the reply. I can't find where I said hooped ladders are a working platform (?) so little confused about the statement; all I meant was the ladders are used to gain access to the rooftop walkway (which is the working platform I believe). I also thought inspections were not required unless they were on new ladders, not ones installed before 2005? Again, apologies if I'm incorrect. Weight bearing I assume, but you're right, I don't know for certain. Completely unable to use MEWP given it's location, so it has to be the method I described unfortunately. And you're right, I meant fall restraint not all fall arrest. If no suitable anchor points (i.e. rated and tested) would that suggest the task has to be abandoned? Thanks again.

With the greatest of respect, you say you would inspect a new or recently new ladder, but not one that is nearly 15 years old and exposed to the elements and all that life can throw at it?

I don't know what to say...

Originally Posted by: peter gotch

We don't know the dimensions of the silo, nor where it sits within the space around.

Apart from the sound advice already given, I wouldn't automatically assume that a MEWP is impossible. There are all sorts of MEWPs that can be moved into quite small spaces and used in such spaces.

We also don't know whether the silo is in the open air or in an enclosed area, so we can't consider whether e.g. you might use a crane and man-riding basket.

Dimensions I'm not fully sure of, but I'd say they were about 15-20m tall but the silos have no 'roof' as such and are in an enclosed area. I suppose it might be possible to reach one of the silos from the outside walls with a cherry picker, but I'm not certain - given the location  - it could do both.

If these are open top vessels #7 Fiesta suggested a drone mounted camera - eliminate the person being at height

Originally Posted by: Dave5705

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

Originally Posted by: Dave5705

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

Hi all, I have a query about rooftop walkways and fall arrest systems. Basically, we need to access our silo to put a camera in it (to measure the build up of glass sludge) so we can determine how often they need to be drained and cleaned out. Whilst access to it is fairly simple (use of a an approximately 10m fixed, hooped ladder - old, installed pre 2005 I believe - that leads directly to a metal rooftop walkway), the camera has to be lowered into the silo so we can perform the recording. However, I'm unsure whether or not a fall arrest system will need to be worn during any or all of the process? As far as I know, the HSE doesn't seem to have much guidance in the way of hooped ladders apart from RR258, but seemed a little inconclusive about how effective (or ineffective) they are in conjunction with the use of FAS. ALso, with regards WAHR and fixed ladders, there is no specific guidance (?) and just aims to reduce the risk and consequences of a fall by measures to control or prevent falls from height. I don't know if they are even suitable attachment points even if someone was to wear a FAS. As for the walkway itself, it prevents falls through use of the guardrail, but is this sufficient or do we need to actual incorporate the use of FAS? Thanks.

Hooped ladders are a mean of access and not a working platform. These themselves should be on an inspection regime. Sounds as though they are not. Metal roof, is it in good condition, is it weight baring (How do you know?) Is the means of access the correct one? Maybe use a MEWP. 

You need to think about collective fall prevention before personal!! Then you want to think about fall restraint and not fall arrest, anchor points again need tested in conformance with the standard. 

Sounds like a dodgy "DO-IT" you need to think carefully and get the appropriate level of advice.

Thanks for the reply. I can't find where I said hooped ladders are a working platform (?) so little confused about the statement; all I meant was the ladders are used to gain access to the rooftop walkway (which is the working platform I believe). I also thought inspections were not required unless they were on new ladders, not ones installed before 2005? Again, apologies if I'm incorrect. Weight bearing I assume, but you're right, I don't know for certain. Completely unable to use MEWP given it's location, so it has to be the method I described unfortunately. And you're right, I meant fall restraint not all fall arrest. If no suitable anchor points (i.e. rated and tested) would that suggest the task has to be abandoned? Thanks again.

??

With the greatest of respect, you say you would inspect a new or recently new ladder, but not one that is nearly 15 years old and exposed to the elements and all that life can throw at it?

I don't know what to say...

I'm not saying they shouldn't be, I was just clarifying that the Regs don't say you have to if it's installed before 2005? But yes, point taken; it's outside and hasn't been (to my knowledge) inspected ever so a risk assessment would probably dicate they should be inspected. I'm assuming if they were installed post 2005, they would have to be inspected no matter where they were situated, how often they were used or how old they were?

Well this is a learning event for me. Where does it say that ladders installed or bought pre the regs in 2005 do not need to be inspected? I interpreted the regs to mean that all ladders should be regularly inspected (from 2005 onwards), not only equipment bought after 2005.

Apologies, I can't seem to locate where I thought I'd found this in the regs, so I might be confusing it with CE marking (?). In fact, would you construe reg 12, part 3 to apply to fixed ladders (as schedule 6 doesn't specifically mention 'fixed' ladders)?

Additionally, I'm having difficultly convincing my boss that we should do an inspection; please can anyone point me towards guidance that states how often and by whom the inspections should be done by? I know the WAH and PUWER regs says 'suitable intervals' and a person who is 'competent but is there an general industry standard that gives a general timeframe and guidance on whom to select? I can do a general visual inspection, but I'm sure it needs to be more comprehensive; what should be my benchmark for establishing whom is competent to do so?

Once I've got over that hurdle, I can look at the FRS (hopefully).

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

In fact, would you construe reg 12, part 3 to apply to fixed ladders

Yes. Absolutely, 'Exposed to conditions causing deterioration' can mean many things, like poor handling (in the case of leaning ladders) and weather (in the case of fixed). 12 monthly should be a minimum. Use of fall arrest during climbing- regulation 6(40)(a)(ii) states that (3) include existing states of access and egress, so to me that is yes you should unless you can argue it is not reasonably practicable to do so. 

As for competent, I would say in your case you should be looking for signs of deterioration, rust, flaking paint would be the first clue. Do you not have any engineering expertise in your company? You must decide how good or poor the condition is (and log it). If you are concerned for any reason then take it higher up the chain and get it inspected. I'm sorry, I don't know your site or equipment and can't really imagine this in my head. A picture paints a 1000 words?

Originally Posted by: Dave5705

Originally Posted by: Svick1984

In fact, would you construe reg 12, part 3 to apply to fixed ladders

As for competent, I would say in your case you should be looking for signs of deterioration, rust, flaking paint would be the first clue. Do you not have any engineering expertise in your company? You must decide how good or poor the condition is (and log it). If you are concerned for any reason then take it higher up the chain and get it inspected.

Some engineering expertise yes; I myself am not an engineer, but I'm fairly confident with the kind of checks I believe need to be done, though I wasn't sure if it had to be someone who was officially recognised to be able to inspect.