I would say that it is reportable.  It did arise at a workplace and in connection with work activities in work time and regardless of whether he reported it or not, this would be seen as a workplace accident which goes over the 7 day reporting rule. 

There's no denying that Tom should probably have looked after it better, nonetheless, I believe it to be reportable.

Interesting one. So the IP (Tom) never reported this accident until 5 days after it happened? (reported Monday after injuring himself on previous Wednesday). The IP cannot say for sure that he did injure himself at work. (assumes he did it whilst kneeling on a drain). And he continued to work on this injury for 2 more days. (Thurs and Fri).

I wouldn't blame you if you didn't report it. There is no evidence that he did this at work. There is no evidence it is a work related injury of any sort. Even by the IP own admission he can't be certain that it is work related.

However, only you know if it is reasonably likely that he did hurt himself on the drain. If you think it is reasonable, then it would be reasonable to suggest that you should report it as a +7 day injury.

In either circumstance I would suggest you carry out a full investiigation, including examining the drain in question for sharp areas. I would also review PPE, do they need leg protection?

Finally, you will not be told by RIDDOR if it was not a reportable injury. In fact you will likely get no feedback at all, beyond the confirmation of the report.

Thanks for replying all, Interesting views here...

My thought process really was that I/the IP cannot verify the causal link between him kneeling on the drain and the cut itself, it is entirely possible that he had the cut prior to or after this incident and didnt know. It is simply assumed by the IP this is when it happened. I also cannot verify the causal effect of the secondary infection as being directly related to the cut, the diagnosis can be linked to both cuts, one off severe trauma and repeated softer trauma's such as kneeling for/over long periods of time.

I have completed the investigation as best as possible at this moment in time (the IP is currently off sick) and have ascertained that it could have been possible for him to hurt his knee whilst kneeling, the drain is situated in front of a boiler at a sunken level in the floor and the job he was undertaking was re-lighting of boilers so it is possible he knelt in front of the boiler and caught his knee on the drain. Though uneven floor surfaces are contained within our RA's including those used on this particular job, I feel the control measures could be better and this is an action we will take away to resolve.   

I think the general conscensous is that if i believe it could of happened then I should report as a 7+. 

I would report this.  Whilst the cause of the injury cannot be proven to have been work related, there is a reasonable suspicion that it did.  I beleive it is better to be safe than sorry and you do not lose anything by reporting.

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14

Whilst I would agree that nothing will be lost by reporting it, I personally don't think it is reportable.  He is off work due to a medical condition arising out of the injury not due to the injury itself.  If you dig through the guidance I am pretty sure that this sort of scenario is covered and medical issues arising out of the injury are not reportable.

I thought the same, but could not find anything to support it. I’m sure this issue has been discussed on here in the past. However the HSE’s RIDDOR guidance is pants, their examples are limited and I tried to find something on this on the myth buster section of the HSE site to no avail, But the legislation isn’t the best to start with.

PS. So the work trousers have a corresponding cut ? food for thought.

Chris

I'm with HSqaured and Chris42 on this one: the time off wasn't due to the injury. Back in the day HSE would have wanted it reporting, but since RIDDOR 2013 they've tightened up a lot on the reporting criteria, and I think a direct causal link between the injury and time off is now what they're after. So no, I wouldn't report it,

John

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel

I am not sure why people are calling this a secondary infection. Someone kneels on something and cuts their knee. What they kneel on is by its nature full of microorganisms and after a period of incubation, infection sets in.  There is a clear probably causal link between the cut and the infection.

If you are saying there is not what about the situation where someone pricks themselves with a dirty needle in a hospital lab.  The few days later there is evidence of infection. According to your criteria this would not be reportable as the original injury was only a minor pinprick and the infection was a secondary matter not directly linked to the needle stick.

Good points well made, I withdraw my previous opinion,

John

Edited by user 09 July 2019 17:40:27(UTC)  | Reason: Clarity

I would say not reportable basing this on the Reporting injuries, diseases and dangerous occurrences in health and social care information note issued by the HSE. In this it does discuss secondary infection noting that " Infections that could have been acquired as easily in the community as in work are not reportable, unless the infection was definitely acquired at work." making that point that the infection that has led to the absence could have infected the cut any time after it was open especialy as it would not appear to have been cleaned.

So the accident event that can be identified is the cut on the drain cover, the post accident infection is not, remembering the the HSE say "There must be an identifiable external event that causes the injury, eg a falling object striking someone. Cumulative exposures to hazards, which eventually cause injury (eg repetitive lifting), are not classed as ‘accidents’ under RIDDOR."

The information note can be found here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis1.pdf

HSE webpages mention exposure to biological agents and it makes it clear that these are reportable if they are work related, with no restriction to lab or health care settings. So this could be a RIDDOR

See http://www.hse.gov.uk/biosafety/about.htm for more details

Originally Posted by: WatsonD

There are no witnesses - doesn't meant it didn't happen. The question I would consider is why would he lie about it being an accident at work?

WatsonD

Perhaps the company involved do not pay their employees for absence that is not a work related injury. Perhaps a mate down the pub / on tv advertising reminded him where there is blame - there's a claim

The point about a needle stick incident, is good and made me think further, but I think that is a different sort of injury. Yes, if you get a needle stick injury, the end if used is likely to be contaminated with something or you are accidentally injected then you could transmit all sorts of things to yourself, I agree. But I consider that a different type of injury to a small everyday cut / wound as you could easily get in the world outside work, as in it. A wound which can be cleaned out and in fact would bleed, the body’s own way of flushing a wound. As noted by others cleaning the wound is not necessarily 100% effective, but can be, as otherwise why bother. A needle stick injury you can’t really do anything, until test and treatment if necessary.

The link A Kurdziel provided as he notes does not exclude such incidents outside of Labs or Health care work, in fact it mentions farmers. They may be working with all sorts of zoonosis type micro biological diseases and medication etc. However, do you really feel that the HSE had an infection to a minor cut, when not deliberately working with microorganisms in mind when they wrote all that guidance? nothing within it indicates so.

As Johnc noted “He said such infections showing up some time after the injury occurred was not uncommon “. So, it is not uncommon and every tiny cut or scratch that happens in the workplace could become infected. It will be just down to luck if it does or does not. So, a small company could have a number of these very minor initial injuries, but end up with a load of RIDDOR reports, which then affect their stats and so potential work. Some of the larger companies when getting pre-qualification info just ask how many, not what. In my current organisation none of our customers are interested in our stats, so makes no difference if I report or not in that way. Again, I would question, are the HSE really interested in knowing about these minor injuries that by pure luck end up becoming worse. This is why I feel there is two stages, a cut and then some luck or not and an infection, it is not a certainty there will be an infection.

Not only that, what happens next if you are one of these unlucky companies, do they end up trying to stop every very minor cut / scratch. That would become impossible, but they would try or at least make the H&S bod try, all with a cry in the background of “too much H&S”.

How may plasters does your company use each month / year (Now what % of those could become RIDDOR). Fine if you are in an office you can work with a dressing that has to be kept clean, but the moment you are in a trade of some sort any restriction of what you can do, because you have to keep your infected dressing clean, means you can no longer do your full range of duties and so becomes reportable.

I consider that when we answer questions on here this view and outlook remains a guide for all those who read in the future. Isn’t it up to us to make a sensible interpretation? Yes, I would report a needle stick injury if there became an issue, because I think the infection is more closely linked to the injury and almost inevitable with a contaminated needle. But a minor everyday cut / scratch, is what it is and should unluckiness strike does not make the initial injury more than it really was. The HSE are not bother about broken fingers, so a minor cut seems a stretch.

Don’t get me wrong, it is an accident and there should be an investigation and perhaps something done to prevent reoccurrence, if people need to kneel on rough surfaces.

So, as a profession giving advice to those in the future, do we really think this should always be reportable, given the arguments for and against?

Chris

A lot of infections are caused by micro-organisms that are present on our skin, cellulitis for example is comes from the Staphylococcus and Streptococcus bacteria which can enter a small cut in the skin and can very quickly become sepsis and life threatening.  The same with the dreaded MRSA which is carried on the skin of approximately 2% of the population as standard.   You don't need to get the infection from the drain cover.  Cleaning the wound may have no positive effect whatsoever and because these are micro-organisms, they do not need a large cut to enter the blood stream.

It's very possible this was a very minor cut from a burr on the drain cover and the micro-organisms entered it and caused this infection.  I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt.