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Hi, I am looking for some advice on who/what the duty holder is required to do in relation to legionella? We are a multi site business and each site has an appointed responsible person, who has been trained, in relation to water systems (domestic and cooling towers). My question: Can the company be the statutory duty holder covering all sites or does it need to be a named person? If it is a named person, do they require a specific level of legionella related training or is it sufficient that they have appointed responsible persons at each of the sites? Advice and guidance is much appreciated. Cheers
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There is often a lot of debate over the exact naming of roles in regard to legionella - I suspect it falls out of water treatment companies standard logbooks more than anything else. Dutyholder is a term common across ALL h&s hazards so not sure why it should get any particularly special treatment here tbh.
I personally have no problem with a name or a company so long as the arrangements for appointment of the 'Responsible Person' are clear and that accountability (as with all safety matters) is defined. Does it work within the context of your organisation?
If naming someone, then it is normal for it to be a Director etc. and I wouldn't normally expect any specific legionella training per se - or what is the point of the RP and competent persons they appoint?
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Rank: New forum user
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Thanks Xavier123, That is along the same lines as I was thinking. And you are correct in your assumption that my enquiry has developed out of a water treatment company specifying the need for this role to be named in a log book, and specifying a need for them to be trained (for which they have offered a course, funnily enough).
Thanks again.
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Rank: Super forum user
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There is no statutory duty holder for legionella because there no specific law covering legionella. Instead the HSE have produced an ACoP explaining the duties of employers under COSHH for legionella. This includes the duty to assess risks and to manage those risks. There is no need for a named individual in law but if you want the system to work and your organisation is more complicated for example a multiple site then names roles is probably a good idea (it is always a good idea if you want to have any sort of H&S that works to have names attached to roles and responsibilities). Named person is good idea but not a legal requirement.
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I recently did my P901, and a point noted was that the Statutory Duty Holder should have access to competent help to assess and manage the risks, and have sufficient bugetary control to action works etc as required. The Responsible Person ( and Deputy where applicable) should be suitably trained, instructed, informed and have authority to be able to suitably manage the process.
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Rank: Super forum user
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P901 is a course run by the British Occupational Hygiene Society. It is not a statutory requirement but useful to have if you are managing more a complicated system. Having someone designated as a responsible person makes sense in such circumstances but it is not a legal requirement. So there is no Statutory Duty Holder ( other than the employer under HSWA and COSHH)
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Originally Posted by: Ferguson38290  Hi, I am looking for some advice on who/what the duty holder is required to do in relation to legionella? We are a multi site business and each site has an appointed responsible person, who has been trained, in relation to water systems (domestic and cooling towers). My question: Can the company be the statutory duty holder covering all sites or does it need to be a named person? If it is a named person, do they require a specific level of legionella related training or is it sufficient that they have appointed responsible persons at each of the sites? Advice and guidance is much appreciated. Cheers Hi, I came across the above and it prompted me to present the following scenario and ask for advice? An engineering company who are 'tenants' on a site where there are multiple occupying businesses have recently had a Legionella RA(LRA) done by a water treatment company. Trying to establish accountablility and responsibility. Each engineering company have 20+ employees working within their respective tenancies. It is normal practice for the landlord to provide services to maintain systems such as electrical supplies, fire alarm systems, fire extinguishers and other utilities. The water systems are, in the main, Hot and cold water - kitchens, toilets, hand washing, showers, although there are some metal working fluids systems(I deal with this separately). The water company have done three separate LRA's an in the standard format looking for each of the companies to nominate a RP and a deputy. What are the Landlord responsibilites and the individual companies responsibilities - given this scenario? Is it necessary for the individual companies to nominate RP's and deputies or should that lie with the Landlord? I have tried the (VERY COMPREHENSIVE) HSG247, but I've interpreted responsibilities on individual basis and not the one I've presented above. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who have experience of this? Thanks Edited by user 06 August 2019 08:33:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Philk Originally Posted by: Ferguson38290 Hi, I am looking for some advice on who/what the duty holder is required to do in relation to legionella? We are a multi site business and each site has an appointed responsible person, who has been trained, in relation to water systems (domestic and cooling towers). My question: Can the company be the statutory duty holder covering all sites or does it need to be a named person? If it is a named person, do they require a specific level of legionella related training or is it sufficient that they have appointed responsible persons at each of the sites? Advice and guidance is much appreciated. Cheers Hi, I came across the above and it prompted me to present the following scenario and ask for advice? An engineering company who are 'tenants' on a site where there are multiple occupying businesses have recently had a Legionella RA(LRA) done by a water treatment company. Trying to establish accountablility and responsibility. Each engineering company have 20+ employees working within their respective tenancies. It is normal practice for the landlord to provide services to maintain systems such as electrical supplies, fire alarm systems, fire extinguishers and other utilities. The water systems are, in the main, Hot and cold water - kitchens, toilets, hand washing, showers, although there are some metal working fluids systems(I deal with this separately). The water company have done three separate LRA's an in the standard format looking for each of the companies to nominate a RP and a deputy. What are the Landlord responsibilites and the individual companies responsibilities - given this scenario? Is it necessary for the individual companies to nominate RP's and deputies or should that lie with the Landlord? I have tried the (VERY COMPREHENSIVE) HSG247, but I've interpreted responsibilities on individual basis and not the one I've presented above. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who have experience of this? Thanks
Hi Landlord's duties are usually what is stated in the lease. However, even if the landlord is responsible it still won't absolve the employer of it's duties to employees re Legionella. In my experience the landlord is usually only responsible for Legionella RAs in the common areas (communal toilets, kitchens etc) leaving the responsibility of LRAs for occupied areas to the tenant. Therefore in this scenario I would say that the individual companies are respondibile for their own occupied areas.
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 1 user thanked Natasha.Graham for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I'd try HSG274. ;)
Being a pedant aside...Natasha is correct.
Each employer has responsibility for the water services over which they have actual or contractual control. Unless their is a specific agreement that states otherwise (unlikely!) then the landlord will have the common parts, the engineering companies will have the outlets, pipework etc. within their demise. So they will need to be clear about what that means and what that looks like - even if in practice its just a single cold tap.
The critical thing in such scenarios is clear understanding of how those roles play out and co-ordination.
Those responsiblities remain in place even if the tenants ask the landlord to come in and do monitoring/maintenance work on their behalf, they are still legally responsible for it as it will form part of their undertaking.
Those LRA's can often make it seem more complex than it necessarily is but it sounds like their principle findings - that all parties should have an RP for their respective water services - are correct.
HSG274 Part 2 2.147 - 2.151 covers this.
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1 user thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
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...I've posted about being a pedant and then made a terrible grammatical error... :0
Some ones' irony metre may exsplode.
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Originally Posted by: Natasha.Graham Originally Posted by: Philk Originally Posted by: Ferguson38290 Hi, I am looking for some advice on who/what the duty holder is required to do in relation to legionella? We are a multi site business and each site has an appointed responsible person, who has been trained, in relation to water systems (domestic and cooling towers). My question: Can the company be the statutory duty holder covering all sites or does it need to be a named person? If it is a named person, do they require a specific level of legionella related training or is it sufficient that they have appointed responsible persons at each of the sites? Advice and guidance is much appreciated. Cheers Hi, I came across the above and it prompted me to present the following scenario and ask for advice? An engineering company who are 'tenants' on a site where there are multiple occupying businesses have recently had a Legionella RA(LRA) done by a water treatment company. Trying to establish accountablility and responsibility. Each engineering company have 20+ employees working within their respective tenancies. It is normal practice for the landlord to provide services to maintain systems such as electrical supplies, fire alarm systems, fire extinguishers and other utilities. The water systems are, in the main, Hot and cold water - kitchens, toilets, hand washing, showers, although there are some metal working fluids systems(I deal with this separately). The water company have done three separate LRA's an in the standard format looking for each of the companies to nominate a RP and a deputy. What are the Landlord responsibilites and the individual companies responsibilities - given this scenario? Is it necessary for the individual companies to nominate RP's and deputies or should that lie with the Landlord? I have tried the (VERY COMPREHENSIVE) HSG247, but I've interpreted responsibilities on individual basis and not the one I've presented above. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who have experience of this? Thanks
Hi Landlord's duties are usually what is stated in the lease. However, even if the landlord is responsible it still won't absolve the employer of it's duties to employees re Legionella. In my experience the landlord is usually only responsible for Legionella RAs in the common areas (communal toilets, kitchens etc) leaving the responsibility of LRAs for occupied areas to the tenant. Therefore in this scenario I would say that the individual companies are respondibile for their own occupied areas.
Thank you for the feedback, much appreciated :)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Originally Posted by: Xavier123 ...I've posted about being a pedant and then made a terrible grammatical error... :0
Some ones' irony metre may exsplode.
meter ;-)
John
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