Originally Posted by: HoweD

Originally Posted by: craigroberts76

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: craigroberts76

And yet the N95 masks were being sold by large distributers a few weeks ago for £95+vat for 20.  I'm in the mind that if they are to be used for public transport etc "outside" of working hours, then that has to a) be a better and environmentally better than binning b) these have to be better than a scalf, t'shirt or thong as recommended by government agencies. 

For reference, N95 are different to KN95.  N95 is the US standard that was agreed to be an equivalent of FFP2 and approved for use in healthcare if required.

thanks for the clarification

Now that we have them (supplied by our US office), provided not used as RPE in the workplace and staff aware that they cannot be used as RPE, using instead of a facecovering made from a tee-shirt surely has to be better than simply throwing away and not putting the company at risk?

So have you got NR95, as you originally alluded to, or N95?

Personally, I'm not sure I'd sanction the use of NR95 even as a face covering.  They may physically work as well as t-shirt material but will give people and even bigger false sense of security as to most they would appear to be no different to a bells and whistles pukka FFP3.

It may seem wasteful but if I were you I'd get procurement to take the hit (if they have purchased NR95) and have them not feel too bad about it.  They were obviously trying to do the correct thing in a dynamic and uncertain environment.  Lots of people will have fallen for the same issue.

They look like PPE, they are fraudulently marked as PPE, "buyer/use beware" disclaimers have no standing - unfortunately the performance of these "fakes" is incredibly variable in some cases offering less protection than covering the face with a T-shirt.

Roundtuit  Why do you reply twice to every comment lol, I think you need to look at your settings, or you just want to get your point across

Good Morning

Can anyone help with the mask requirments for first aiders, we were going to use the surgical masks but then we read several articles stating they should be FFP2 or FFP3 however these are difficult to get hold of.  I have also read the safety alert form the HSE regarding the N95 masks.  Just wondering whats best to provide to first aiders?

Thanks

Andrew

Originally Posted by: andrewjb1

Can anyone help with the mask requirments for first aiders, we were going to use the surgical masks but then we read several articles stating they should be FFP2 or FFP3 however these are difficult to get hold of.

How has your RA determined any form of face covering is a necessity for First Aid let alone face fitted masks as a required control measure? Even in this pandemic there are lots of lazy approaches all too readily leaningto PPE as an attempt to be seen to be doing something to quell  insurers nerves.

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t129882-Medical-Emergency-in-the-Workplace-Covid-19-Controls

Originally Posted by: andrewjb1

Can anyone help with the mask requirments for first aiders, we were going to use the surgical masks but then we read several articles stating they should be FFP2 or FFP3 however these are difficult to get hold of.  I have also read the safety alert form the HSE regarding the N95 masks.  Just wondering whats best to provide to first aiders?

My understanding of this would be that a surgical mask would be seen as suitable. Preferably worn by both the patient and the first aider. Since an FFP mask would need to be face fit testing it is not reasonable to expect work places that don't have these facilities to carry out that testing for the first aiders. This combined with the current shortage of these masks mean tht safety would be compromised should they be a requirement.

The government guidance suggests that FFP3 masks should only be worn (as a protection against COVID) for health proffessionals. with a high risk of coming into contact with infected patients.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/first-aid-and-medicals/first-aid-certificate-coronavirus.htm

"If available, use:

• a fluid-repellent surgical mask
• disposable gloves
• eye protection
• apron or other suitable covering"

(about half way down that page)

The only place i have seen FFP masks for first aiders is in the schools guidance for dealing with young children who start exibiting Covid19 symptoms. manged to get a few  for our Nursery - and organise the face fit. Just hope they sit unued in the first aid box.

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: andrewjb1

Can anyone help with the mask requirments for first aiders, we were going to use the surgical masks but then we read several articles stating they should be FFP2 or FFP3 however these are difficult to get hold of.  I have also read the safety alert form the HSE regarding the N95 masks.  Just wondering whats best to provide to first aiders?

My understanding of this would be that a surgical mask would be seen as suitable. Preferably worn by both the patient and the first aider. Since an FFP mask would need to be face fit testing it is not reasonable to expect work places that don't have these facilities to carry out that testing for the first aiders. This combined with the current shortage of these masks mean tht safety would be compromised should they be a requirement.

The government guidance suggests that FFP3 masks should only be worn (as a protection against COVID) for health proffessionals. with a high risk of coming into contact with infected patients.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/first-aid-and-medicals/first-aid-certificate-coronavirus.htm

"If available, use:

• a fluid-repellent surgical mask
• disposable gloves
• eye protection
• apron or other suitable covering"

(about half way down that page)

I'll continue to wear my FFP3 facemask......surgical masks are pretty useless at protecting the wearer from infection. And they're available at the local toolstore (although you can only purchase 5 at a time)

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky

Fair enough. However I would expect you to get tired a lot quicker giving chest compressions wearing a properly fitted FFP3 than a surgical mask. My post was just highlighting the guidance available on the HSE website.

Surgical masks offer poorer protection than properly fitted FFP3....and the larger majority of FFP3 masks used in hospitals feature an expiration valve (most of the surgical masks allow significant bypass of inhaled air, their major use is to reduce the risk to the patient)

"This study focussed on the effectiveness of surgical masks against a range of airborne particles. Using separate tests to measure levels of inert particles and live aerosolised influenza virus, our findings show that surgical masks provide around a 6-fold reduction in exposure. Live viruses could be detected in the air behind all surgical masks tested. By contrast, properly fitted respirators could provide at least a 100-fold reduction" https://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr619.htm

I think we are looking at two separate points here. I agree that a properly fitted face mask will give you more protection against viruses, but that is not what the question was asking. The question was whether first aiders should be wearing them, for which the advice is no.

Given the current shortage of masks, the trouble getting them face fitted, the issues with insisting all first aiders are clean shaven and the fact that valved masks are not recommeded (meaning that breathing through them is difficult), is it reasonable to ask that first aiders wear them?

The advice from both the HSE and St.John's say they are not required. Of course you can ask that they be worn, it is up to the employer to decide what the controls are in place. However, it is not considered necessary. Of course if you have a link to a reputable organistaion that disagrees with this (in regards to first aid) we will read it and take it into consideration.

Originally Posted by: John Murray

Incidentally, the advice that N95 masks are not required comes largely from their lack of availability...and I'll refer people to the KN95 stories of recent past (I passed a guy in Aldi last week, wearing a full-face headpiece with attached battery-powered air pump....possible overkill?) (screwf** are now selling FFP3 masks in lots of 5 maximum)

In the link the WHO also account for FFP masks as being appropriate for protection in healthcare enviroments of known Covid-19 contamination.

I would suspect the chance of a non-face fitted FFP3 mask from any (non-specialist) supplier being effective is about the same as a 3-ply surgical mask.  I've certainly seen bigger gaps around the edges of some FFP (type) masks being used in the general population than you typically get with surgical type masks.

Also worth mentioning that ALL Screwf** FFP3 masks are valved, so only protect the wearer (if correctly face fitted)

Edited by user 17 June 2020 09:24:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"Also worth mentioning that ALL Screwf** FFP3 masks are valved, so only protect the wearer (if correctly face fitted) "

Why would I want to wear a mask that impedes my respiration, when the reason I wear it is to protect myself?

And in the local hospital, all level 2 PPE respirators are FFP3, with shrouded exhalation valve. Level 1 can be the usual surgical mask.

It seems that "as long as i am ok, everyone else can go jump" is endemic. That person probably thought (wrongly) they were protected, so what does it matter if the other people catch it.

What I like (actually it makes me cross) are those people who wear a face mask-FFP3 with valve inside the supermarket and then as soon as they get out they light up a fag!

I know what they are going to die of and it’s not Covid 19!

Also why are people wearing gloves all of the time-answers on a postcard to NHS helpline PO Box SARS-2 

Originally Posted by: Heather Collins

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel

Also why are people wearing gloves all of the time-answers on a postcard to NHS helpline PO Box SARS-2 

Cos putting a mask and gloves on is like y'know protection innit?

Real answer - ignorance

Why be so quick to judge?  I wear gloves in supermarkets.  I know what the limitations are and I know how to use good glove managenent.

I wear them to more easily avoid cross contamination between goods, trolleys etc and the surfaces on and in my car.

Not everyone who wears gloves is ingorant of the protection they give in dynamic scenarios where cross-contamination is as much of an issue as direct contamination.

Oh, and I'm a habitual face toucher.  Wearing gloves is a constant reminder not to when I'm in situations where contaminated surfaces are a real risk.

Edited by user 17 June 2020 14:05:47(UTC)  | Reason: Additional text

Gloves are pretty good at transferring contamination, as the following demonstrates:

In a letter to the Journal of Hospital Infection (March 2010) the authors (Ludlam HA, Swayne RL, Kearns AM, Brown DFJ) listed 25 cases where MRSA had been transmitted from a source to a site from which infection could result.

Of these for 21 (84%) the vector was the gloved hands of the health care worker!

Ludlow HA, Swayne RL, Kearns AM et al, “Evidence from a UK teaching hospital that MRSA is primarily transmitted by the hands of healthcare workers”, Journal of Hospital Infection, 2010, 74, 266-270

Secondly, gloves worn for an extended period will cause damage to the skin due to the occlusion. This is not just sweat but what is called trans-epidermal water loss (TEWL). The hyperhydration has an adverse effect on the skin’s barrier function and can ultimately result in irritant contact dermatitis (hydration dermatitis). In the meantime it makes the skin more easily colonised by transient micro-organisms.

This weeks RAPEX sees the emergence of masks claiming to be anti-bacterial/anti-microbial because they have for example silver treated fabrics.

Any product on the EU/UK market making such a claim should be authorised by an EU member state under the Biocidal Products Regulation even when sold by on-line retailers.

not questionable - illegal - just like all the other untested / non-approved fashion face coverings making similar claims based upon a material within their construction.