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llsedwards  
#1 Posted : 19 January 2021 07:06:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
llsedwards

I have been doing some research on why people take short cuts and carry out unsafe acts when everything is in place for them to succeed (no time pressure, SSoW, competence, experience etc.).

It got me thinking about whether the more experience someone has and the more repetitive the job the more likely someone is to take short cuts.

For example we all sometime fail to use a pedestrian crossing.  We know there is a pedestrian crossing.  We know how to use a crossing and that they are there for our safety. We understand that being hit by a car could be fatal. We know the process well.  Press the button, wait for the green light, look and then walk across.  We are not in a rush.  So why do we still take the risk, ignore the crossing and dash across?

I was thinking of implementing a complacency assessment into pre-job briefs. 

Complacency Risk = Experience x Confidence x Repetitiveness of the job

Does anyone have any experience of this?  It would be good to get the conversation going as I am keen to learn from others.

Many Thanks

Wailes900134  
#2 Posted : 19 January 2021 11:07:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

I would recommend some exploration into Human Factors for you first.

Evaluating levels of experience and confidence is not a simple task. Even agreeing what they are would be the source of much debate.

I would say that approaching it in the way your question suggests that there is a reasonable chance of your prestart brief degenerating into a message of "take more care"... an insight into human factors will quickly identify the futility of such instruction.

HSSnail  
#3 Posted : 19 January 2021 11:31:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

As Wailes says lots of information out there about Human Factors - i would also look at the research that has been done on Risk Perseption.

Also worth reading the articles published by IOSH presidenet from last year Andrew Sharman. This is an area where i think he is one of the leading experts. He uses Swis Cheese theory to do more than just look at accidents.

Acorns  
#4 Posted : 19 January 2021 15:41:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

Not sure I’d agree that experience leads to complacency per se. Inexperience could equally be complacent through limited or lack of appreciation of the consequences amongst other reasons
The zebra crossing is possibly not the ideal example- it ignores those who don’t even get to the crossing, let alone choose to follow or ignore the lights and loads of other permutations
Perhaps experience - that’s in time served, may be where they have held onto older or less current systems of work and that is perceived as complacency.
I don’t think we could stand older in service (experienced) employee next to younger in service (inexperienced) employee snd distinguish one as complacent compared to the other.
Perhaps if we had an example of the role, task and employees then a better assessment could be made
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 19 January 2021 16:40:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Based purely on anecdotal knowledge rather  than any sort of scientific research I would suggest that  experience in itself  nether makes you complacent nor competent.  It depends how you assimilate that experience. You might find that you are able to ”get away with it” for years and ride your luck; that could be the lesson you take away from you experience.   A bad experience early on in your career might focus your mind on the health and safety of a process or procedure and lead to you adopting more cautious approach. On the other hand, some people think it is all down to  “luck “ and any accidents are just bad luck.  

achrn  
#6 Posted : 19 January 2021 16:43:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: AcornsConsult Go to Quoted Post
Not sure I’d agree that experience leads to complacency per se. Inexperience could equally be complacent through limited or lack of appreciation of the consequences amongst other reasons

I think lack of appreciation of the consequences is different to complacency.  I think the 'complacency' label is specifically for the people that know what to do, know how to do it, know the potential consequences of not doing it, and still don't.

Crossing the road is an excellent example. 

My company's head office is across the road from a supermarket. Most people buy their lunch there. Door to door (crow flies, crossing diagonally across an A-road) is about 50m, and the route via a pelican crossing is about 100m - so an extra 30 seconds walking.  How many people go via the pelican? I reckon about 5% use the crossing.  Even I don't use the crossing (most days).  All these people know the green cross code, know the crossing is there, know they could be killed, and still leg it across (normally diagonally - breaking another of the rules they knew when they were six). This is complacence.

I think familiarity does tend to complacency for some people (but not necesarily everyone).I have no idea, however, how you identify the people particularly prone to complacency, or how you prevent people getting complacent.

Acorns  
#7 Posted : 19 January 2021 18:40:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: AcornsConsult Go to Quoted Post
Not sure I’d agree that experience leads to complacency per se. Inexperience could equally be complacent through limited or lack of appreciation of the consequences amongst other reasons

I think lack of appreciation of the consequences is different to complacency.  I think the 'complacency' label is specifically for the people that know what to do, know how to do it, know the potential consequences of not doing it, and still don't.

Crossing the road is an excellent example. 

My company's head office is across the road from a supermarket. Most people buy their lunch there. Door to door (crow flies, crossing diagonally across an A-road) is about 50m, and the route via a pelican crossing is about 100m - so an extra 30 seconds walking.  How many people go via the pelican? I reckon about 5% use the crossing.  Even I don't use the crossing (most days).  All these people know the green cross code, know the crossing is there, know they could be killed, and still leg it across (normally diagonally - breaking another of the rules they knew when they were six). This is complacence.

I think familiarity does tend to complacency for some people (but not necesarily everyone).I have no idea, however, how you identify the people particularly prone to complacency, or how you prevent people getting complacent.

 

Quite agree with your onthe last part, although we may continue to debate the road corssing as a good/bad example.  Perhaps the language of the OP could be tweaked - complacent not being the right one when used tih experience (That particular task or generic tasks) and confidence (Is acutally capable of doing it or not capable but thinks they are) (both vague) and unsure if repetitiveness (Is twice in 5 years repetative and relevant, well yes it may be if it was soimething like moving house but less so if it was crossing the road) is equally vague 

What is really interestingabout the OP is the topic being opened for thought and discussion and evaluating the context in which it could be used so as to have some value.


 
andybz  
#8 Posted : 20 January 2021 08:04:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

Good discussion so far. I would suggest the label "complacency" is going to be unhelpful, but the underlying principles are recognised by human factors.

It is often assumed that inexperienced people make the most errors because they do not understand the risks and are not practiced in the job. The reality is that experienced people also make errors, but they are different types. One of the main reasons for this is that practice allows us to do things with less cognitive effort - we start to work on 'auto pilot.' This either means we pay less attention or we start to do more than one thing at a time. This is why telling people to "be more careful in the future" after an accident or retraining them is ineffective.

CptBeaky  
#9 Posted : 20 January 2021 08:41:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Isn't it more about "familiarity" than experience? When people assume they already know how to do a task they are less likely to percieve their actions when actually taking on the task. It becomes automatic. Safety checks are done, but don't things can be missed because they are on auto-pilot and already moved on to the next action.

This can sometimes be beneficial though. If you can instill "fail to safe" checks into a person's psyche then it can save lives.

Holliday42333  
#10 Posted : 20 January 2021 08:47:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

There is also a theory regarding brain function to explain what is sometimes called complacency.

This video by BP is a good introduction https://youtu.be/ds3LX-E-rhw ​​​​​​​

biker1  
#11 Posted : 20 January 2021 15:37:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Way back, when I was doing my NatCert, one of our lecturers had a favourite expression - people are not stupid, they're just trying to get the job done (although my experience since has suggested to me that this might not altogether be true). Added to this, if someone doesn't see a compelling reason for doing something, sooner or later they won't do it. I have always adopted the principle that it is just as important, if not more so, to explain why something needs to be done, as to simply explain what is to be done.

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CptBeaky on 21/01/2021(UTC)
O'Donnell54548  
#12 Posted : 20 January 2021 17:11:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

It is simple really. People, to differing extents, are driven by gain and loss. And this has nothing to do with competence or complacency. If there is a short cut, and a personal advantage to taking that short cut, then people with habitually use that short cut. Many short cuts are created initially as a short term, one off, occurrence but some become the norm as others see the advantage of following this route.

As an example to illustrate what I mean look up pictures of 'desire paths' on the internet. I used these often when training people on how to compose a SSOW.

thanks 1 user thanked O'Donnell54548 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 25/01/2021(UTC)
stevedm  
#13 Posted : 25 January 2021 07:56:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

slightly disagree with the statement that complancency doesn't bring a higher incident rate in general it does - you can call it several things...you will already have HSG 48 so what you are trying to do is a Human Factors risk assessment in your general RA which in my view unless done by a HF professional is a dangerous from liability but what you need to look at for your own background is the assessment with Peronal Influencing Factors... I would only recommend going down this route for high hazard and defined safety critical tasks...

https://www.hse.gov.uk/humanfactors/resources/risk-assessment.htm

If you need more detail please feel free to PM...it can work but you need to be careful how you implement it...we do it with frontline critical care...

O'Donnell54548  
#14 Posted : 25 January 2021 18:46:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

slightly disagree with the statement that complancency doesn't bring a higher incident rate in general it does - you can call it several things...you will already have HSG 48 so what you are trying to do is a Human Factors risk assessment in your general RA which in my view unless done by a HF professional is a dangerous from liability but what you need to look at for your own background is the assessment with Peronal Influencing Factors... I would only recommend going down this route for high hazard and defined safety critical tasks...

https://www.hse.gov.uk/humanfactors/resources/risk-assessment.htm

If you need more detail please feel free to PM...it can work but you need to be careful how you implement it...we do it with frontline critical care... 


Sorry but I disgree. Too often when looking at Human Factors as part of the assessment process in H&S the emphasis is only on the employee. This is often used to place blame on them, and therefore clear the employer/managers/safety practitioner of liability, apparently the basis for all H&S these days.

When the HASAW Act was first introduced back in 1974 few workplaces had anyone specifically dedicated to H&S, subsequently many assigned this NEW duty to their 'time and motion' team. This arrangement actually worked very well as it aligned safe systems of work with efficiency and productivity, surely a perfect example of 'so far as reasonably practicable'. 

But soon there came riding over the hill, in high vis vest and hard hat, the safety professional to inform everyone with pie charts and graphs, meta analysis, slide rule accuracy and scientific hypotheses that H&S was not that simple.

And so was sown the seeds of respect and admiration which our profession now has with both employers and employees.

stevedm  
#15 Posted : 26 January 2021 07:22:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

very good :)

Clearly another shout about how little EHS professionals know about Occupational Psychology...and a very draconion or daily fail way of looking at this which isn't helpful for the poster....yes it is all about the individual no matter what position they hold in that chain...I am sorry that your organisation or your experience means that you haven't experienced the benefit of the correct use of Human factors assessments...

Now me seeing that post in your position I would have reflected and reseached the background to know what I am actually talking about...before throwing a stone...

And on respect for the profession...well I am not sure comments like this gain respect..and from what I can see there are good and bad in all professions however respect only comes from doing a good job...

I have recently been called to review a serious incident involving an injury to a construction worker written by 2 experienced and Charted members of this profession....both blamed the individual and missed the technical failings in the management chain and the equipment installation...so I will stick to my slide rule and technical view on life because in doing so I am actually saving lives not just complaining about being blamed for something  I actually did!

O'Donnell54548  
#16 Posted : 26 January 2021 16:40:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

very good :)

Clearly another shout about how little EHS professionals know about Occupational Psychology...and a very draconion or daily fail way of looking at this which isn't helpful for the poster....yes it is all about the individual no matter what position they hold in that chain...I am sorry that your organisation or your experience means that you haven't experienced the benefit of the correct use of Human factors assessments...

Now me seeing that post in your position I would have reflected and reseached the background to know what I am actually talking about...before throwing a stone...

And on respect for the profession...well I am not sure comments like this gain respect..and from what I can see there are good and bad in all professions however respect only comes from doing a good job...

I have recently been called to review a serious incident involving an injury to a construction worker written by 2 experienced and Charted members of this profession....both blamed the individual and missed the technical failings in the management chain and the equipment installation...so I will stick to my slide rule and technical view on life because in doing so I am actually saving lives not just complaining about being blamed for something  I actually did!


To each his own, we both have our own views based on our knowledge/experience. This is the root of debate, where as trying to convince the other side that they are wrong and you are right is an argument!

As far as research goes my CV includes: Pyschology of Business Level 3, Advanced Psycology Level 4, Behavioural Safety Level 3 and Level 3 Open University Human Factors in Making and Using Rules.

stevedm  
#17 Posted : 27 January 2021 08:32:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

doesn't beat a Masters in Psychology :) :)  

so bearing in mind your behavioural safety qualification - what part of your qualification matched time in motion with Human factors and made you so aggressively opposed to it?

O'Donnell54548  
#18 Posted : 27 January 2021 14:27:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

stevedm - The part which looked at the goal of human factors to reduce human error, increase productivity, and enhance safety and comfort with a specific focus on the interaction between the human and the thing of interest. Rather than making me 'aggressively opposed' to the application of psychology in the workplace it re-confirmed my belief in the success of the 'time and motion' team of which I cited earlier. 

It also reaffirmed, for me personally, that H&S is a simple concept made complicated by pseudo-science. I am sure that you will not agree, and that you and I would tackle an issue in two completely different ways. That is the advantage of our profession, that there is room for both of us to practice without conflict to reach a satisfactory conclusion.   

thanks 1 user thanked O'Donnell54548 for this useful post.
LancBob on 23/03/2021(UTC)
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