Originally Posted by: SLord80

Which vaccines are currently compulsory for foreign travel? I’m just curious as I’ve had a quick search but struggling to find any.

I found lots of information quite quickly actually.  Most common is a requirement for a Yellow Fever vaccination.  Needing one depends both on the contry you are going to as well as the country you are comming from.  Otherwise a vaccination is just reccomended.

From an NHS Site "A yellow fever vaccine called Stamaril® is available to protect you against yellow fever. In addition, certain countries require you to produce a yellow fever certificate to enter the country. Please refer to the individual country pages for disease information and certificate requirements."

From a travel information site "Some of the countries that may require you to show a yellow fever certificate include Australia, India, Egypt, China, the Bahamas, Mexico and the Philippines."

Originally Posted by: SLord80

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: SLord80

Which vaccines are currently compulsory for foreign travel? I’m just curious as I’ve had a quick search but struggling to find any.

I found lots of information quite quickly actually. Most common is a requirement for a Yellow Fever vaccination. Needing one depends both on the contry you are going to as well as the country you are comming from. Otherwise a vaccination is just reccomended.From an NHS Site "Ayellow fever vaccinecalled Stamaril® is available to protect you against yellow fever. In addition, certain countries require you to produce a yellow fever certificate to enter the country. Please refer to the individualcountry pagesfor disease information and certificate requirements."From a travel information site "Some of the countries that may require you to show a yellow fever certificate include Australia, India, Egypt, China, the Bahamas, Mexico and the Philippines."

Yes I found that link of course, but I was looking for which vaccines are mandatory if I wish to go to a country. I can’t find any, can you? The countries you listed don’t seem to mandate them for travellers from England, from what I can see? And certainly having been to a couple of the countries on the list, I wasn’t required to show any proof of vaccination.

So no evidence of mandatory vaccines?

Plenty of evidence for mandatory vaccines in a global context.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

If that making-vaccinations-mandatory is legislated, it opens the door for a whole range of workplace vaccinations, of which covid is just one. Since evidence, so far, is that vaccination only reduces the chance of illness becoming serious enough for hospitalisation to be needed. So far we have only had that plumber pr** in London saying all employees will have to be vaccinated, but plenty more are waiting in-the-wings. Still waiting for evidencial confirmation that vaccination reduces the viral load enough for the person vaccinmated to be unable to pass the infection to others. the New England Journal of Medicine has an interesting paper out...ish...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2036242?articleTools=true

AND .. I got another letter from the headbangers in London (govt) saying that EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HAD THE VACCINE, I should follow the rules and not go out too far, wash my hands repeatedly (what's remaining of them) and not get too close to anyone. Letter valid until 31st March. Another will follow around then advising the same, probably until the date of my funeral.

All because the PTB did not follow expert advice back at the start of last year, and are STILL not following that same advice, which has been updated. This country could save a fortune by not hiring/paying experts, and just enlisting the bar drunk from down the road....when they open them again.

Anyway, until Lockdown IV: Boris Rides Out, the sequel

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Spain was an earlier adopter of "Presumed Consent" for organ donation. A country controlled for many decades by General Franco a dictator who set a lot of their legislative practices in to place.

Israel is reported to have published a new law allowing the name and contact details of those who are not innoculated to be distributed. What was that saying about failing to learn from history?

Interstingly in the debate about a vaccination passport one reporter reminded us of the backlash against a certain T Blair when he tried to push through a National Identity Card - there but in name.

"It could be added to the NHS app" EXCEPT not everyone has a smartphone, has the app or wants to risk the loss of private data through device theft - politicians need to get ther heads and ideas out of the mire that is Social Media.

Lets be clear what Israel is doing, implementing apartheid. Do we want a two class society here ?

So all these people who wont be able to work and have a life in the future, what next ? Ghettos ?

"a base sample of 1,000+ adults in .... between 16-74 in the United Kingdom, The samples in ... the U.K. can be taken as representative of the general adult population in these countries under the age of 75."

67% strongly agree that "If a COVID-19 vaccine was available to me, I would get it", along with 22% that somewhat agree. Suggesting that uptake is likely to be around 89%. This is the highest of the 15 countries surveyed, and is very encouraging.

At this level we would be well above the herd immunity levels required, so that those few that cannot/will not take it are still protected. I think this shows why mandatory vaccines may not even be necessary here. I think if the uptake is especially low the converstion would have to be very different. My biggest concern is that people will not get the second jab, for various reasons.

Originally Posted by: N Hancock

Do they want a two class society here ? So all these people who wont be able to work and have a life in the future, what next ? Ghettos ?

Already present & correct along with a huge concrete wall that DJT was very jealous of.

I recognise this in an emotive matter, but ........

I see very little wrong in requiring that NEW employees be vaccinated, if that's what an employer wants - as long as those with certificated medical reasons [but not personal whim] are exempted from the requirement.

Obviously, I would have a [legal] problem with an employer imposing the requirement on existing employees, however, I can forsee a goverment imposing the requirement in the Health and Care sector, but hopefully with a log enough lead time for 'non-takers to sort out alternatives, including transfer to non public facing positions.

I am now at the age [dotage?] when my daughter says "Don't worry about getting too old, when it happens I'll find a nice cheap Care Home for you to go to".  I think she is joking, but I would [will?] be asking whether the care home staff are vaccinated, before going into any such place.

Similarly, if I was still recruiting staff, I would ask the question.  The answer would be included in my considerations.

As someone who has spent the last year shielding, my opinion of anti-vaxers and the "I'll wait to see what happens" and the "Only if I can choose which vaccine" people is unfortunately not repeatable on a public forum.

----------------------

As an aside - a couple of years ago, when on holiday in Italy I saw a 'Proclamation' from the Italian authorities in Lombardia [and possibly nationwide] that required that studends attending schools to be vaccinated against measles [I think it was measles].  Students not vaccinated were to be sent home.  Those below about 11 yrs would have to be home schooled, and older student's parents would  also face significant continuing fines for each child not attending school.  Not sure how it worked out, but it does provide a pointer on how Covid vaccinations may progress.

Anyway - had my first jab 3 weeks ago - never seen so many smiling faces in one place for a very long time.  Next one due 21st April at 11.45pm.  And I fully expect to have an annual booster, like the flu jab.

Edited by user 25 February 2021 12:27:52(UTC)  | Reason: typos

To be honest, I am not sure I would want to employ someone that doesn't care when their actions could negatively impact someone elses health. Choices are rarely consequence free, I don't see why this choice should be any different. The idea that "choice should be free of punishment" is naive. Many choices people make will negatively impact their lives. Getting a face tattoo of the queen having a poo is legal, but don't expect to have the same chance of being employed if you make that choice.

Maybe the answer is  people that refuse (as opposed to cannot have) the vaccine should be asked to continue with the other control measures until we are ready to face a world in which COVID is a controlled part of life. But considering those against vaccines also tend to be the ones against masks, lockdowns and other measures I, for one, cannot see how these people expect us to move forward.

Vaccines should be optional, but protecting society shouldn't be up for debate. If you refuse the vaccine I would fully expect you to continue with mask wearing, social distancing and avoiding crowded spaces for the foreseeable future, voluntarily.

Every dictator is merely protecting their society even if that involves gassing, clubbing and incarceration of individuals - after all it is the society they control which matters.

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky

67% strongly agree that "If a COVID-19 vaccine was available to me, I would get it", along with 22% that somewhat agree. Suggesting that uptake is likely to be around 89%. This is the highest of the 15 countries surveyed, and is very encouraging.

Vaccine uptake in the BAME community is around 57%.

Since a high percentage of the care-homes-staff are from that community, I see problems (locally, there are already problems with some staff refusing the vaccine) (since they're part-time workers, their work time has been reduced to zero hours)

The herd-immunity percentage, in light of mutant variations is supposedly around 80%.

Vaccine effectiveness is around 72% after 21 days with both vaccines, and the period of time being lengthened between injections seems to make little difference, with effectiveness after second injection being 90%+ (100% for reduction of serious illness)

Originally Posted by: John Murray

"Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice' "

That's your choice.

How long will you wait?  Some long-term effects are not known for decades! Some [others] may pay the ultimate penalty for your free choice.

I will have it when I feel comfortable with it, not because of coercion and vaccine apartheid. It maybe next year, 5 years, who knows.  Please note ive had all my other vacs.

I am not concerned with those who may the price, it’s my health I am worried about. Likewise, you don’t value my right to choose something which isn’t mandatory so why should I care ?

Originally Posted by: biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock

Originally Posted by: biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Who did they ask ? For every poll that says that there will be one which says the oppsotite.  Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice'.

The problem is that other people might have to pay a heavy price for your free choice, but there you go.

A) I dont care

B) So why is it a choice ? a choice should be free of punishment ??

And when no ones employs the unvaccinated what then ?  Answer that .. Do we go on the dole or what ?

Your answer to A makes me wonder if you work in health and safety, and if so, why.

Yes, I have worked in the field since 2006, educated to BSc (Hons) & MSc in the subject before that. CMIOSH since 2016.

Public Health (and my health) though is a different matter.

Why should I need a valid medical reason to exercise my right not to have an invasive procedure conducted upon my person? You may have been under MO's orders during your army days, that service being for "Queen, Country and ...... permitting our right to say NO!"

Personally I am awaiting my call up to be jabbed.

As an ex-smoker of forty years I choose not to be one of those lecturing others about their choices or espousing the "greater good". The latter is normally a call to arms of the vocal minority as recently demonstrated by a French Mayor banning meat from school dinners (sure Cpt Beaky would like that one).

Making things compulsory is always tricky – look at seat belts in cars or crash helmets on motorbikes? But at least with those you have a choice put on the belt or don’t drive the car etc.  A little like smoking in pubs – yes I could have stayed away because I don’t like cigarettes and I believe they cause ill health so was banning them abuse of a smoker’s human rights or the protection of my rights to be able to go to the pub?. With vaccination, I have mixed feelings. If we knew the vaccine worked 100%, I would say, great, your choice, you get sick while I will have the jab; thank you. But at the moment, we don’t think that’s the case. Mass vaccination appears to reduce not only the severity of illness but also transmission.  This suggests to me that some vulnerable people could still catch covid and die – so do you have the right to refuse the vaccination and unknowingly pass it on to someone? And what are the alternative if you don’t have the vaccine ? Should we lock you away or maybe get you a bell to ring as you walk around?  It’s a real dilemma and one I don’t have an answer to. My hope is that those scientists who are saying covid will become like flu whereby many people die each year – but not in the numbers we see now, and the NHS can cope with the overall demands on their services.

I do have a view on mass testing – I have seen reports that in Liverpool, it was only 40% accurate, and while initially, numbers of cases went down – they quickly went back up with the rest of the country.  I have already seen people ignore social distancing and say, “it’s OK, I was tested –ve”. For me benefits of mass testing have not been proved so I would not make that compulsory.

Originally Posted by: biker1

 However, only our own lives were involved. With COVID, it is our own lives, and everyone else's, so a different situation.

Thank you biker and yes thats what i was meaning with my examples - but i did waffel on a bit

I am sorry but this is simply a lie “as a vaccine which doesn’t stop the spread of a virus and that can lead to serious disability or death.” .

The vaccine will limit the spread of the disease. If people don’t get the disease, they can’t spread it. There is evidence that any of the vaccines currently,  on offer pose any significant risk of disability or death.

The vaccine is not perfect, at best it is 90% effective, and the virus will mutate  but what is the alternative? We cannot remain in lockdown forever nor can we allow thousands of people to die by doing nothing.

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel

The vaccine will limit the spread of the disease. If people don’t get the disease, they can’t spread it.

 

Actually, I don't think that's been established yet.  (Quite apart from not understanding what 'the vaccine' means - any and all approved covid vaccines?  Approved by whom?)

It has been established that you can be an asymptomatic carrier of the disease.  You can carry the virus and not have 'the disease'.

I think there are some remaining questions about whether the vaccines affect the rate of carriers in the same way as they affect the rate of people having symptoms (or severe symptoms).  There are particularly recent questions about whether the american single-dose only-needs-basic-refrigeration vaccine prevents you contracting the disease or whether it 'only' prevents you getting severe symptoms (turning the virus into something of an annoyance rather than a life-threatening illness). 

To my mind, a vaccine that didn't need a dedicated distribution chanel, and only needed a single dose, and was very much cheaper than the others, but which converts the risk of Covid from being dead to having some sniffles for a couple of days is more use (worldwide) than one that ensures you never contract and never transmit Covid but needs all those fancy (and expensive) things.  Such a vaccine, however, would not "limit the spread of the disease".

Vaccines stop the spread of a virus that is how we stopped smallpox. To spread  a virus needs to reproduce  in a host ie a person. A vaccine causes the host to produce antibodies  which takes out the virus before it can reproduce. No reproduction no spread. It’s how immunity works.  Some vaccines are 100% effective such as the smallpox vaccine. The vaccines that have been developed for   COVID-19 are less so. There therefore is a possibility that someone may still get infected but be asymptomatic ( upto probably 70% of people who get the virus are asymptomatic)  those people will still pass on the virus but if  everybody is vaccinated the vaccine will have less chance to spread and the R-number will be well below 1.0, so the number of cases will decline. The virus will reman endemic, with a small proportion of the population(less than 0.01%)  at any one time with the virus. What the number will settle on will (should) be the basis for what the government will do next. If it drops to a very low number, they may drop all other controls but on the other hand if it is a bit higher, they may retain controls for the vulnerable groups who are at greatest risk from the virus (over 70’s, people in hospitals etc). If a new variant  strain appears that the vaccine is not effective against, we may have to go back into lockdown, we don’t know.

The vaccines provide the best  chance of getting back to something resembling normality. Without them we would basically be screwed. 

PS I used to be a virologist working with viruses, including respiratory viruses.