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Mersey  
#1 Posted : 25 March 2021 10:14:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mersey

I'm after recommendations for a RA course that explains the whole package including CAPA , how to track open actions keep them visible, what to do with the RA whether its used to develop safe systems of work etc..

I have just reviewed the process at a site and my comments are

I have reviewed many risk assessments at BLEEP and the ones I have looked at - it is clear that there is a lack of understanding of the risk assessment methodology, the reason I say this is because descriptions of the activity undertaken are not suitably specific, on occasions risk and control measures have been missed, choice of PPE is vague (example wear gloves - what gloves? Oven Gloves?) review dates are missing and there is no central action/ CAPA system to log and rack actions. The risk assessment is not a safe system of work or safe working instruction but is being used as so "read this and your sorted" , it doesn't instruct people on how to complete a task in a safe manner. Some risk assessments are referenced in controlled documents but don't even exist the whole process is flawed and needs overhauling this is a large task will need clear plan put in place from re-writing the RA procedure, prioritising a list of activities and training up individuals in departments to a good standard.

Can anyone recommend a course that ticks the boxes of the the whole full loop closure- not just the risk assessment part.

Many thanks

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 25 March 2021 12:15:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“CAPA”  “BEEP” is this in Welsh(see the other thread) ? Translation( I assume  CAPA= Corrective and Preventive Action) BLEEP draws a blank.

Mersey  
#3 Posted : 25 March 2021 13:08:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mersey

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

“CAPA”  “BEEP” is this in Welsh(see the other thread) ? Translation( I assume  CAPA= Corrective and Preventive Action) BLEEP draws a blank.


BLEEP as in the sound made when trying to obscure something such as a swear word :)

I substituted the name of the company for "BLEEP" it may have been for obvious if I called it "ABC CHEMICALS"

you were right about CAPA though :)

peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 25 March 2021 13:57:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Mersey - I doubt that you will find an off the shelf package that would cover all that you are looking for.

You WILL find providers who say that their course is exactly what BLEEP needs, but it is unlikely to be true.

P

Gerry Knowles  
#5 Posted : 25 March 2021 14:28:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gerry Knowles

If you PM me I will pass you the details of a consultant who runs an excellent RA course and will tailor it to your requirements. 

A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 25 March 2021 14:54:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

There is a truth about risk assessment that most people in health and safety will not acknowledge is that risk assessment not simple and straightforward, except for the most simple and straight forward processes and operations. Despite what the HSE has said to do a risk assessment properly takes a lot of thought and follow-up  actions. So you really need to get someone to guide you through the methodology for what you are actually doing.    As said it’s not universal and there are different approaches. In some places the hazards arise out operation systems and equipment. As such you might be able to come up with numbers for failure rates etc and use those to drive your risk assessment. In others it is entirely  down to human factors,  which is where it gets interesting.  

 

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Holliday42333 on 25/03/2021(UTC), aud on 26/03/2021(UTC)
stevedm  
#7 Posted : 25 March 2021 15:31:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

in your environment...you are better off doing it in house and rolling it out across the factory...maybe even include the quality guys (wink) they might learn something...Corrective And Prevenatative Action (CAPA)..

chris.packham  
#8 Posted : 25 March 2021 15:41:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I would also suggest you consider different approaches for risk assessment for accidents (physical damage) and chemicals (health damage). The former tend to be instant and usually obvious and thus perhaps more easily envisaged. Health damage can be gradual, i.e. repeated exposures over time with the effect only becoming apparent after a considerable period, delayed, i.e. a single exposure but the consequences only become apparent after a long time, possibly years, acute, i.e. quickly apparent and reversible or irreversible, and with considerable difference as to the severity, managability, implications for the employer and employee. My area of work is the health aspects. I see many risk assessments (particularly those based on the safety data sheet) where the validity of the consequences is highly questionable, if not totally wrong simply because the assessor, perfectly capable of physical hazard assessment, has received little real training on the complexities of health issues within a working environment.

thanks 1 user thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
aud on 26/03/2021(UTC)
stevedm  
#9 Posted : 26 March 2021 08:55:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

agree chris...but some places still are not at that stage...you can see from some comments on this forum that those parts still are not well understood...COSHH is really an initial screening tool and only stage 1 of an assessment of chemical exposure...but we are still getting 'I've sent you the coshh sheet' when only the safety data sheet is sent...the risk assessment process done properly doesn't just give you compliance with R3 it helps make the tasks and operations sometimes more efficient...but the view is still there that risk assessment is there to stop you doing a task rather than helping you to do it...

In Pharma it is even more difficult, Quality guys in the main think that thier risk assessment process is the only one that matters...and then they miss things that are important, like PSSR ATEX/DSEAR etc...I'm am doing some of them a grave injustice there but it is only there to illustrate the point...

@Mersey - there isn't something out there that will fit...there are a few of us that could help put that package together for you but at the end of the day you are talking bespoke course and my suggestion is in house - find someone on the grad scheme and under your direction get them to create the pack...involve the global guys as it will be of value to other site and perhaps even HR/Training to see it as Leading/ Behaving safely program...

chris.packham  
#10 Posted : 26 March 2021 09:23:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Steve – I agree with you. For me COSHH risk assessment has to be a team effort. Those involved must include someone who understands the process and how chemicals are used. Then one will need someone who can assess the effect on the chemicals when used and the hazard that results. I would also include those who actually operate the process as, in my experience, they are often the only people who know what really happens when the task is carried out. One will also need someone (or possibly more than one) who can assess the effect on health due to the potential combination of exposures (inhalation, ingestion and dermal) and the interaction between these. (So many still seem to believe that they are totally discrete routes of exposure whereas the scientific evidence shows this not to be the case.) Of course, there will be situations where this can be simple, but I could easily describe situations where even those with expertise in the latter find this often extremely difficult and where specialised knowledge is needed. What is often the key here is to know who to contact. All this means, as you so correctly put it, that a ‘one size fits all’ package is never going to be adequate. Perhaps this is why occupational ill health issues far outweigh the frequency of physical injuries.

thanks 1 user thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
Michael Corkhill on 29/03/2021(UTC)
stevedm  
#11 Posted : 26 March 2021 09:39:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Agree Chris...and we could debate that one long into the night...doesn't help Mersey tho'..  :)

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