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KMILES1  
#1 Posted : 10 May 2024 15:52:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KMILES1

PHONE BOOTHS: (Whether Free Standing or Built In): I am advised are a room or features which could be a “material alteration that affects part B”of the  Building regulations. For a non HRB, an application is needed to the RBCA / Local Authority and all regulations (fire, ventilation etc. apply)

However I have 3 questions that I cant quite obtain clarity on (so far!)

1. Is Fire Detection Required for an L2 Category system in all cases of the fact? What is the exact determination as BS5893 is a little unclear and Fire Risk Assessors can vary in respect of advice given.

2. What is the smallest size a phone booth can be? - is this Welfare Regs 11m3 ? I ask as that is much bigger than many phone booths on the market or that I have seen built.

3. Opening & closing the door could be considered sufficient ventilation, but what is the threshold? Or as they are short duration use, is that a mitigation in and of itself? 

In practice the larger booths seem to end up being used as mini offices - even the smaller at times observed.

Thoughts welcome

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 10 May 2024 16:06:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

13 years a member, nine posts on mainly two threads Building Safety - preparing for an interview?

The welfare regs are specifically that - welfare in the workplace and have no bearing on what would be an occasional use area (otherwise storage cupboards etc would need to also be 11m3).

Not sure why you are seeking "smallest" sizing - the equality act & disabled access also have a bearing on dimensions in a premises.

Who in reality uses phone booths in these days of mobile phones (other than as a local book exchange)

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 13/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 10 May 2024 16:06:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

13 years a member, nine posts on mainly two threads Building Safety - preparing for an interview?

The welfare regs are specifically that - welfare in the workplace and have no bearing on what would be an occasional use area (otherwise storage cupboards etc would need to also be 11m3).

Not sure why you are seeking "smallest" sizing - the equality act & disabled access also have a bearing on dimensions in a premises.

Who in reality uses phone booths in these days of mobile phones (other than as a local book exchange)

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 13/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 13/05/2024(UTC)
Messey  
#4 Posted : 10 May 2024 18:19:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

A fie safety question re phone booths??????? Blimey!!!

I do not understand the part about a L2 system. Can you clarify what you want to know? 

KMILES1  
#5 Posted : 11 May 2024 05:16:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KMILES1

Questions were prompted following discussion with an RBCA and the requirement to apply for building control sign off was confirmed by them. The RBCA stated that the requirement to provision devices would be driven by the category Level of the system, as designed. 

Edited by user 11 May 2024 05:54:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 11 May 2024 10:55:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi KM 

I think perhaps you are overthinking this scenario, partly due to the advent of the BSA and the Regulations made under this, and perhaps because HSE now has a dual function both as the HSE of old and now also as it houses BSR.

Before BSA you would need to consider this alteration or whatever in terms of how it would enable compliance with occupational health and safety legislation AND whether it would comply with Building Regulations and whilst there would be overlaps clear guidance as to which enforcing authority took the lead.

Post BSA and with neither an HRB or residential accommodation in the mix, I think it would be wise to still treat these two sets of legislation as being largely separate and consider each on its own merits.

So, in terms of Building Regs does the alteration pose a "material" change to the risk - 1. Does it overload part of the building? 2. Does it change the fire risk e.g. by impinging on aspects such as travel distances or impacting exits OR increase the risk of ignition by being e.g. installed in an area which has a Zone classifiction. 

If the answer to both these questions is "NO", then it will probably move through the Building Regs process quite easily (assuming there are no other considerations such as the building being Listed).

Next to the Workplace Regs, the Approved Code of Practice comments, amongst other things:

97 In most workplaces 11 cubic metres (11 m3) of space per person should be taken as a minimum. This calculation should not take into account ceiling heights in excess of 3 m. A space of 11 m3 per person may be insufficient if much of the space is taken up with furnishing or equipment.

98 The minimum space referred to in paragraph 97 does not apply to: ■ retail sales kiosks, attendants’ shelters, machine control cabs or similar small structures, where space is necessarily limited;

■ rooms being used for lectures, meetings and similar purposes.

So, starting with para 98, you are not looking at just the space within the phone booth but how much space is available for all the people working in the area that includes the phone booth. 

No business would stay open for very long if it stuck people in separate phone boxes all day UNLESS the business was a rogue trader that perhaps has people crammed together in a series of phone boxes, with operators calling random numbers to tell those answering that there is a problem with e.g. their VISA debit. This is the sort of business that doesn't ask for consents for Building Regs, nor intend to worry about compliance with any legal requirements. They get caught, shut up shop and start again somewhere else.

However, even if someone was using the phone booth as a place of work for an hour or two at a time, then perhaps it would be akin to the scenario in para 99 (though to be honest, I doubt it).

However, if that phone box is there to allow someone with a degree of choice to go to use it to get some extra privacy for a call, then it wouldn't be in breach of the Workplace Regs as the phone box only forms part of the overall working space available to the person.

Bear in mind that the 11m3 is not some new standard. It is the metricated version of a number that dates back to the 19th Century, when Parliament decided that there had to be a limit on how many people could be crammed into a sweatshop factory. At the time when the Factories Act 1961 was enacted the number set out in Section 2(2) was 400 cubic feet which sounds much more than 11m3!

But 400 cubic feet for someone working in a room 2.4m (8 feet) high means an area 50 feet square, about 7 feet by 7 feet, so just over 2m x 2m.

Even in 1961 you were not allowed to count any space more than 14 feet above the floor. That number got reduced to 3m which is the metricated version of 10 feet.

Edited by user 11 May 2024 11:03:19(UTC)  | Reason: Formatting

firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 12 May 2024 12:17:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

13 years a member, nine posts on mainly two threads Building Safety - preparing for an interview?

The welfare regs are specifically that - welfare in the workplace and have no bearing on what would be an occasional use area (otherwise storage cupboards etc would need to also be 11m3).

Not sure why you are seeking "smallest" sizing - the equality act & disabled access also have a bearing on dimensions in a premises.

Who in reality uses phone booths in these days of mobile phones (other than as a local book exchange)

Are there any rules about frequency of posting, topics, reasons for asking a question, and assumprtions about why, etc.etc.

I always thought this forum was for assisting members with their queeries and looking up to more qualified/experienced members for their advice.

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 12 May 2024 19:07:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post
Are there any rules about frequency of posting, topics, reasons for asking a question, and assumprtions about why, etc.etc. I always thought this forum was for assisting members with their queeries and looking up to more qualified/experienced members for their advice.

Feel free to have your own perceptions - you normally do - personally I thought the forum assisted more than "just member" enquiries.

My post achieved its aim (which, having realised they were not being bullied "from" the forum the OP added further information) seeking clarification as to the source of the enquiry so that appropriate responses could be delivered.

Given the reply by Messey I would suggest I was not the only one confused by the OP.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 13/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 13/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 12 May 2024 19:07:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post
Are there any rules about frequency of posting, topics, reasons for asking a question, and assumprtions about why, etc.etc. I always thought this forum was for assisting members with their queeries and looking up to more qualified/experienced members for their advice.

Feel free to have your own perceptions - you normally do - personally I thought the forum assisted more than "just member" enquiries.

My post achieved its aim (which, having realised they were not being bullied "from" the forum the OP added further information) seeking clarification as to the source of the enquiry so that appropriate responses could be delivered.

Given the reply by Messey I would suggest I was not the only one confused by the OP.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 13/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 13/05/2024(UTC)
KMILES1  
#10 Posted : 13 May 2024 15:03:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KMILES1

Thank you for your message Firesafety101, and sentiments.

As my attempt to move on failed, let me stand my ground here - if not for my own benefit, for those younger or less resilient; as I am a mentor to 2 IOSH team members and 2 IWFM members - I believe they call it leading by example.

For the record I deleted my statement “I will not be bullied off of this forum” by simply deciding not to be. I wanted frankly, to move back to the topic and to pick up on Messey’s question. 

Phone booths are becoming extremely popular in modern workplace environments. I know of a Media Agency with 14 installed on one floor alone and they are still struggling with capacity. Anyone working in modern workplace environments where these are used, will be interested in opinions on good design and ensuring compliance.

So the RBCA’s comments are of interest - not just the design criteria to be considered (fire, ventilation, workplace regs as described) but the fact that furniture items are in play also.

Your comments Peter, were valuable as the qualification in respect of the Workplace Regs answered question 2 (and to some extent 3) although as I have seen these booths in all sorts of sizes (from small standing areas all the way to garden offices placed centre stage in an office area), so at some point, one assumes thresholds will be crossed – when does a booth become a “room” (open question)

FireSafety101 is correct, not all of us work exclusively in HS roles, some of us have much wider remits, but are ultimately looking to foster continual improvements in our work environments for the betterment of all, and to provide acurate advice when doing so.

I'd be really interested to hear further comments and opinions, with the above in mind, particularly from those who are Fire Safety specialists (L2 category requirement etc.) 

 

thanks 1 user thanked KMILES1 for this useful post.
HSSnail on 14/05/2024(UTC)
Messey  
#11 Posted : 13 May 2024 20:53:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

You asked - Is Fire Detection Required for an L2 Category system in all cases of the fact? What is the exact determination as BS5893 is a little unclear and Fire Risk Assessors can vary in respect of advice given.

With the details supplied it really is a how long is a piece of string question. I will assume you are referring to an office, the occupants are awake and familiar with the building and there's minimal persons with a mobility concern that may slow their escape

An office building of even a moderate size might only need a Cat M (manual call points and sounders) fire alarm system. 

Where an office needs detection, it's very likely to be a Cat L3 coverage. That is in escape routes and in rooms leading onto escape routes. If a phone booth was located off a corridor which was an escape route and was fitted with a full door and frame, it might require detection to maintain the L3 status IMHO, a booth with a saloon door, or curtain off the corridor would probably not need detection.  L2 is not the norm for offices. Its broadly the same as L3 plus detection in high risk areas. A large office block may fall within L2 as backroom infrastructure can be huge and present a variety of risks. I do not see a phone booth as a high fire risk area that would require detection unless on an escape route   So you see my dilemma. If you supply more information it would help me and others to visualise your situation

HSSnail  
#12 Posted : 14 May 2024 07:00:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

I always thought this forum was for assisting members with their queeries and looking up to more qualified/experienced members for their advice.

If only there was some way of knowing the person responding  is actually competent and not just banging their own drum - i would warn everyone to be very careful with advice taken from this forum (including mine) and do further research on the topic not just accepting the answers given - if 30 years as an inspector taught me anything this it was i don't know everything and make mistakes!

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