Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
MattyK  
#1 Posted : 23 July 2024 14:52:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MattyK

HI All.

Hope you can help

I am a Safety manager at a large manafacturing plant in London.  We have principal contractors on site, and a project manager is acting as principal designer.  When walking past their CDM area, i noticed unsafe lifting techniques being used, so i stopped them from walking under live loads.

The principal designed stated i cant do this, i disagreed as ultimately their footprint is still on our site, and irrespective of their CDM Boundary we cannt allow them to undertake such risky activities.

Apart from the Construction Phase Plan (which i intend to review), do i have the authority under CDM to stop them undertaking works should i feel within my capacity they are acting dangerously?

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 23 July 2024 19:35:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Feel free to antagonise workers at your site however you should have clearly demarked the construction areas and who has responsibility before any works commenced.

If you see something you are unhappy with in the work site of others you have a chat with your contact.

It is unfair on the workers to be presented with two or more potential bosses barking instructions and possibly contradicting one another.

Your other option is to discharge all others and undertake the tasks yourself - thing is you hire contractors because they are specialists and experienced in what they do. 

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
HSSnail on 24/07/2024(UTC), HSSnail on 24/07/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 23 July 2024 19:35:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Feel free to antagonise workers at your site however you should have clearly demarked the construction areas and who has responsibility before any works commenced.

If you see something you are unhappy with in the work site of others you have a chat with your contact.

It is unfair on the workers to be presented with two or more potential bosses barking instructions and possibly contradicting one another.

Your other option is to discharge all others and undertake the tasks yourself - thing is you hire contractors because they are specialists and experienced in what they do. 

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
HSSnail on 24/07/2024(UTC), HSSnail on 24/07/2024(UTC)
achrn  
#4 Posted : 24 July 2024 08:41:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

You have the power to highlight dangerous operations and suggest work is stopped whenever you see anyone doing anything dangerous, however the works relate to you or your employer.  You also have the power to try and contact HSE to report dangerous operations at work (though my attempts at doing that have never been very successful).  These apply whether the work is anything to do with you or not.

We tell all our people on site (whether under our control or not) that if they see anything dangerous they should immediately raise it with the workers and try and get them to stop, then raise it with whatever contacts you have on the site and suggest the work is reviewed.  This is entirely independent of CDM.

I'm slightly surprised at Roundtuit's response.  If you saw a worker about to grab an electrical conductor you knew to be carrying a deadly voltage, would you make a mental note to mention it to the contracts manager when you next saw them?  Personally I'd do what I could to stop the worker grabbing the cable.

None of this is anything to do with CDM - it's basic ethics, in my opinion.

The Client has no right to instruct workers under CDM, but you as an individual have every right to tell anyone to stop doing anything that's dangerous.  

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 24/07/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 24 July 2024 08:48:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I once spotted a contractor on our site using his phone while driving a dumper truck. I went down to the site office and mentioned this to the site manager who promised to have a word with the operative in question. His area manager was on site that day and he said “No you will not. You will tell him to come to the site office and pick up his cards! We have to keep the client happy.”

I was gobsmacked but later found out what they would do is sack them one week and reinstate them the next. Nevertheless, it sounded good and helped maintain a positive relationship.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 24/07/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 24/07/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 24 July 2024 11:05:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
The Client has no right to instruct workers under CDM, but you as an individual have every right to tell anyone to stop doing anything that's dangerous.

I was reading the OP not as an ethical question more a demand for support in a confrontation as though being premises occupier laid a trump card in a construction environment.

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 24 July 2024 11:05:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post
The Client has no right to instruct workers under CDM, but you as an individual have every right to tell anyone to stop doing anything that's dangerous.

I was reading the OP not as an ethical question more a demand for support in a confrontation as though being premises occupier laid a trump card in a construction environment.

peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 24 July 2024 11:13:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Matty

Your first post here, so welcome to the Forums.

Firstly as I read it YOU are not the PD. Either your company or your Project Manager is the PD.

The Contract between your company and the Principal Contractor (or any other Contractor engaged directly by your company) will set out what powers your Contract Administrator (and possibly) PD have to do things such as "STOP the works" The Contract might even give such powers to others in your company to do similar if they observe what they think are dangerous practices, but to be honest I would be surprised if this was the case.

Lots of organisations have policies that say that any of their employees can refuse to work if they think it is unsafe, and sometimes such policies extend to stopping others working if people think it is unsafe. How that would go down if there were a Contractual dispute and a "claim" would depend on the case by case circumstances, but suffice to say if your decision was unsound then a "claim" would likely be successful if made and taken all the way (a rarity).

Nothing in CDM actually addresses such issues directly. 

Essentially if you hand over a part of the site to the Principal Contractor, then subject to any exceptions set out in Contract the PC is now primarily responsible for H&S within the site. However, your company as Client still has residual responsibilities as set out in the "General Duties" of the Client in CDM. Up to your company to decide how to implement such General Duties.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 24/07/2024(UTC), mike350 on 29/07/2024(UTC)
damian2701  
#9 Posted : 24 July 2024 16:07:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

Hi,

Just point the PD to paragraph 68 CDM 2015 - Reporting Dangerous Conditions and should be a condition of or referenced within the Pre-Construction Information - all dangerous conditions should be brought to the attention of those who can do something about it.

firesafety101  
#10 Posted : 24 July 2024 20:10:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I was once responsible for Fire and Safety working for a motor parts factore when Asbestos was being removed.  there were some 1500 women on production lines and, being women, their eyes are everywhere.

I was constantly interrupted in my work by, sometimes women and other times production line supervisors who were telling me the Asbestos workers were doing stuff wrong. Won't go too much into it but I always approached their supervisos and reported the incidents to them.  No problem at all everything was immediately sorted and apologies received.  I always reported back to the women and they were appreciative.

peter gotch  
#11 Posted : 25 July 2024 14:29:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Matty

To follow up Damian's comment I would never give much credence to the guidance in L153 as it just that "guidance" and often written in waffle speak.

However the paragraph in question is guidance on what CDM 2015 Regulation 8(5) REQUIRES:

(5) A person working on a project under the control of another must report to that person anything they are aware of in relation to the project which is likely to endanger their own health or safety or that of others.

This is one of those bits of legislation that needs to be read with care.

"that person" = the word "another".

So, you are looking at the person under whose control the project is being run - which for most purposes once on site is usually the Principal Contractor. 

However, it could be argued that to some extent the site will be under the control of the Client perhaps via their Contract Administrator. 

....and since the Interpretation Act 1978 says that any word in the singular should be interpreted as including the plural (UNLESS the contrary intention is self-evident) then a duty to report to the PC might also extend to reporting to the Client [or Contract Administrator] ).

It would usually be prudent for any H&S advisor working for the Client to be touring the site with a representive of the PC and/or Contract Adminstrator, if only to make it easier to deal with the sort of situation to which your post relates.

mike350  
#12 Posted : 29 July 2024 07:56:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mike350

Having been on both sides of this discussion, I understand the conundrum but ultimately if you see something you have to deal with it. By the time you walk away and pass the information onto the responsible person, someone could be dead.

As the H&S Manager responsible for the Plant, I've always stopped the activity, taken the person in charge of it to the Project Manager and worked with them to find a swift but safe alternative. I believe that I know the site concerned and historically it's always had a proactive approach to H&S and encourgaed it's employee's to get involved !

A Kurdziel  
#13 Posted : 29 July 2024 08:42:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A final thought!

 

The original poster  talks of the “Power of CDM?” . This misunderstands what CDM and all H&S legislation is about, which is  who has what duties and/or responsibilities. The only powers that H&S law creates are for inspectors not employers.  The underlying assumption is that different employers will establish their own protocols based on those statutory duties. These could be informal or based on a written contract. They could involve detailed explicit agreements or implicit conventions. The law is only interested in the outcome: everybody carries out their duties and nobody comes to harm.

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
mike350 on 29/07/2024(UTC), Roundtuit on 29/07/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 29/07/2024(UTC)
Guru  
#14 Posted : 29 July 2024 13:38:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Guru

Irrespective of boundaries and responsibilities and who the works are for, I would always raise any safety concerns I have in a polite and professional manner.

I have intervened and stopped contractor works on a couple of occassions over the years where they were clearly unsafe and in situations where I techinically had no responsibilities for - responses have generally been positive.

My understanding of the situation you describe is you have CDM works underway on your property and there is an principal contractor on site managing the construction phase of the project.  Is your employer the Client for these works?  

If so (and I'm sure you already know) the Client has ultimate responsibility to ensure the PC is doing his job so if this is the case here, it stenghtens your position, although as I stated above, your position doesnt need strenghtened imo. 

toe  
#15 Posted : 20 August 2024 07:41:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: MattyK Go to Quoted Post

HI All.

Hope you can help

I am a Safety manager at a large manafacturing plant in London.  We have principal contractors on site, and a project manager is acting as principal designer.  When walking past their CDM area, i noticed unsafe lifting techniques being used, so i stopped them from walking under live loads.

The principal designed stated i cant do this, i disagreed as ultimately their footprint is still on our site, and irrespective of their CDM Boundary we cannt allow them to undertake such risky activities.

Apart from the Construction Phase Plan (which i intend to review), do i have the authority under CDM to stop them undertaking works should i feel within my capacity they are acting dangerously?

Matty,

If I understand correctly, contractors are currently on your site. This raises a crucial question: are you, and by extension your company, the Client?

If so, you have a legitimate reason to challenge the principal contractor. The client must ensure competent contractors are engaged and that construction work can be carried out as far as is reasonably practicable without risks to the health or safety of any person affected by the project. Clients are also responsible for ensuring safety is maintained throughout the project.

In addition, your decision to challenge the situation of walking under live loads is commendable. It does raise significant concerns, and I believe you did the right thing.

Users browsing this topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.