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itbrose  
#1 Posted : 30 April 2024 08:46:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
itbrose

Following a recent incident I want to send a kettle to a UKAS accredited 3rd party for forensic testing and examination. I have spoken to a few companies including Intertek who as soon I mentioned it was likely part of a claim  that they cant do it. 

There will likely be a claim but the initial investigation indicated it was a complete freak accident (looks like dangly jewellery on wrist managed to make contact with live and earth connection in the base of the kettle  - 2-3mm gap to live connector).

Does anyone have any recommendations of any business that could help?

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 30 April 2024 11:16:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi itbrose

On the assumption that this was an accident at work, but also that the kettle was being used for the usual things that a kettle is used, so perhaps to heat up water in a break out area, then are you sure that you need to do forensic testing?

.....or at the very least there are some easy things you can do before deciding on what forensic testing you might want done and why.

There will be a BS EN that stipulates maximum openings to restrict access to the live components of what is presumably a standard domestic type kettle. That spec will recognise that that conducting materials smaller than human fingers could get into any opening.

So, if the BS EN for machinery safeguarding says (in effect) that the little finger of 95% of the population cannot reach a dangerous part of machinery through a gap of about 6mm, then I would expect that the BS EN for electrical safety on domestic appliances stipulates a smaller maximum opening than 6mm but I don't know what the standard would say.

Assuming that it isn't brand new and has escaped pre Brexit requirements the kettle should have its C E marking - if not then it probably doesn't comply with the BS EN.

If it has CE with no gap then it has been supposedly made to Chinese standards and probably shouldn't be in the UK in the first place - somebody has bought it from a dodgy source!

First thing I would be trying to do is to ask whether there is any evidence of how the kettle came to be in the workplace. With luck it has been bought by the organisation and there is a paper trail showing when it was bought and from where. 

Then the paper trail showing when it has been PAT tested.

Then the inspection to check that it has not been obviously damaged before the incident.

I don't know whether you are looking at this from the view of potential claimant or potential defendant but my guess is that if the kettle was designed and manufactured to meet the relevant BS EN  and there is nothing to indicate that its level of safety has been compromised then any action is likely to fail if competently defended. 

After all the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 are repeatedly qualified by the words "reasonably practicable" which means that they don't require the risk to be ZERO.

You might find the starting point for a forensic examination here. List of every expert witness claiming expertise in Electrical accident investigation (jspubs.com)

or here....| Expert Witness

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
itbrose on 01/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 30 April 2024 11:33:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

This organisation keeps cropping up with regards to electrical safety in the UK

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/

they may offer what you are looking for, or at least have some idea of other competent providers.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
itbrose on 01/05/2024(UTC), itbrose on 01/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 30 April 2024 11:33:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

This organisation keeps cropping up with regards to electrical safety in the UK

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/

they may offer what you are looking for, or at least have some idea of other competent providers.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
itbrose on 01/05/2024(UTC), itbrose on 01/05/2024(UTC)
itbrose  
#5 Posted : 01 May 2024 08:22:12(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
itbrose

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Hi itbrose

On the assumption that this was an accident at work, but also that the kettle was being used for the usual things that a kettle is used, so perhaps to heat up water in a break out area, then are you sure that you need to do forensic testing?

.....or at the very least there are some easy things you can do before deciding on what forensic testing you might want done and why.

There will be a BS EN that stipulates maximum openings to restrict access to the live components of what is presumably a standard domestic type kettle. That spec will recognise that that conducting materials smaller than human fingers could get into any opening.

So, if the BS EN for machinery safeguarding says (in effect) that the little finger of 95% of the population cannot reach a dangerous part of machinery through a gap of about 6mm, then I would expect that the BS EN for electrical safety on domestic appliances stipulates a smaller maximum opening than 6mm but I don't know what the standard would say.

Assuming that it isn't brand new and has escaped pre Brexit requirements the kettle should have its C E marking - if not then it probably doesn't comply with the BS EN.

If it has CE with no gap then it has been supposedly made to Chinese standards and probably shouldn't be in the UK in the first place - somebody has bought it from a dodgy source!

First thing I would be trying to do is to ask whether there is any evidence of how the kettle came to be in the workplace. With luck it has been bought by the organisation and there is a paper trail showing when it was bought and from where. 

Then the paper trail showing when it has been PAT tested.

Then the inspection to check that it has not been obviously damaged before the incident.

I don't know whether you are looking at this from the view of potential claimant or potential defendant but my guess is that if the kettle was designed and manufactured to meet the relevant BS EN  and there is nothing to indicate that its level of safety has been compromised then any action is likely to fail if competently defended. 

After all the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 are repeatedly qualified by the words "reasonably practicable" which means that they don't require the risk to be ZERO.

You might find the starting point for a forensic examination here. List of every expert witness claiming expertise in Electrical accident investigation (jspubs.com)

or here....| Expert Witness

Thank you for the thorough response. 

The IP is a member of the public. The kettle is CE marked, purchased through an approve and well know supplier to the hospitality industry, PAT tested in Jan 2024. I'm pretty confident I know the cause having taken the kettle to our electric engineers for subsequent testing and inspection, including openas they are worried about bias  as they are our employees. 

I think we have identified one but is not a UKAS accredited but looks like the best we can find. I approached Intertek and HSL who were not interested.  

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 01 May 2024 16:50:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi I

Can see the logic in wanting to ensure that you have independent advice as this is going to come down to £££ out (or NOT) and/or potential reputational damage whether or not you are actually liable.

However, my guess is that if this is hospitality with public access to the kettles e.g. in hotel bedrooms then this is NOT the only kettle of its type - you probably have 10s, or 100s or 1000s of kettles of the same basic specification.

On the assumption that your inhouse electrical engineers have not recommended replacing all the twins of the kettle involved in the incident, then the chances are that any claim would be have little chance of success assuming a robust defence.

What does your insurer think?

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