Posted By cfraser I have been trying to move into health and safety for some time now, I live in East Yorks but am willing to travel. Most of the time I was told that jobs were limited with only holding NEBOSH cert, I have now passed NEBOSH Dip 1, will this open more doors for that elusive Health and Safety position,or perhaps that elusive employer is looking for something else? any thoughts, regards Colin

Posted By cfraser gary, cheers, I am a member of IOSH and have approx 10 years of experience although not full time, in industries such as marine, power generation, petro-chemical and oil/gas, most of my experience is within operations approx 20 years.

Posted By Mr T Wilcock Garyh, I find your comments to be aloof,condecending and insultive. Myself i have no 'formal education' but after a long number of years working in a very specialised field [see appointed person post] i regard myself as having a profession. Unfortunately i have met several formally educated and professional people within my field who's ability and knowledge to say the least, is questionable. You also may find this hard to believe, there are dustbinmen who are educated, though some obviously not to your standard. Who was quoted to say, "he is obviously so well educated, to be so ignorant"

Posted By MMM I must say I also found your (gary) comments rude and condesending, however, it is not the first (and no doubt not the last) time I have heard someone take this approach/attitude. Firstly I would like to make a distinction between Site Safety Officers and 'Safety Professionals'. In my opinion (and please correct me if anyone has other views)SSO's are what i would call 'front room' safety staff and SP's are what I would call 'back room' safety staff. One type i would expect to come to work with his steel toe caps and a high vis vest, the other with his parker pen and shirt and tie. Both of these are of equal value in the workplace but both require very different 'skill sets'. I know many of both types of people but there are some Safety Professionals (academics) I would not let anywhere near a construction site just the same as I would not let some SSO's anywhere near a safety and health plan/policy/procedure review session. I beleive the key to success is when these people work together to link the theoretical side of safety to the practical side of safety. I also do not agree that formal education gives a person the skill sets that you refer to eg running meetings....I know many graduates that can barely run a bath nevermind a meeting. Furthermore I didnt realise that you learnt how to take minutes on formal educational courses (I also thought this deliverable was normally that of the administratinal assistant). The vast majority of the SSO's that I have worked with also are far better at auditing that the academics as they have a real understanding of the practice and take a far more practical approach. I think the bottom line is simple, a balance of academia and practical experience is what is required......but you dont get the necessary experience by means formal education...it is by carrying out work in that particular environment eg ON SITE....so in my view a safety officer with practical experience with a formal safety qualification is worth his weight in gold! I look forward to any other view that people may have. Regards, MMM Site Safety Officer

Posted By garyh True I missed off the people skills bit. My point is (try reading what I actually wrote) is that becoming a bone fide Safety Professional (it IS a profession - or can just anyone do it?) is difficult for those without formal education. Not impossible. And I stand by my point that a lot of people from Trades background etc see it is an easy route into a "white collar" job. They accept low salaries, dragging down average salaries. How often does a Solicitor or Doctor get asked "how do I get into your Profession mate?" - I get asked this a lot (don't we all?) Why is that? Note that IOSH is trying to revamp and toughen up it's membership structure - surely to raise standards and profesionalism? I have nothing against anyone trying to get into Safety, but if they wish to achieve a higher status then it will take time. How I got into Safety - went to University (Chemistry degree). Realised lab work was "dead end" so went into Environment as an Env officer. Then became a SHE Officer, did NEBOSH cert. Much in house (big Company training) and got MIOSH. Eventually got first SHE "Manager" job after 10 years in SHE. And so on. In other words I needed a lot of Management skills to make the transition from Safety "Officer" to "Manager". Being a good SO ain't enough to make you able to be a Safety Manager. (Look at the army - how many Sergeants could be an officer and vice versa?)

Posted By Howard I'll second that

Posted By phil Facts are bound to hurt some and facinate others! But the fact remains, with due respect to dutmen, tool-men, the X army....most of those that are able to get the chartership in IOSH are, those with a NEBOSH diploma, and a few others who happen to be on the Director of Safety level or those that knew someone.

Posted By garyh I believe that HAZAN stands for "Hazard Analysis". It was used in a COMAH Safety report I managed. Basically the way we did it was to look at worst case scenarios (fire, explosion, loss of containment) and then look at initiating events. The HAZAN part was looking at the factors leading to initiation - eg possibility of leak leading to flammable materials present, then the possibility of ignition source and so on. You also look at historical events, design factors etc and eventually feed all this into a quantified risk assessment. I was involved in the HAZAN process however it was complex - we used a Consultant (HFL) for this.

Posted By Carl West I'd be more interested for an explination of the last part of the statement - "..or those who knew someone" Carl

Posted By gorkir I'm sorry but I have to ask Gary this question are you an EHO? because in my opinion EHOs are one of the most snobby professions I have ever come across

Posted By MMM Dare I say it but I think that the fact that gary doesnt know what a EHO is paints a picture in itself!

Posted By Bob Thompson CMIOSH Words are a very powerful medium and when using them one has to consider their impact and be mindful that people can be offended by the untoward un planned insensetive comment. This is as much a part of being a professional as qualifications skills knowlege and expierience. Beware of un guarded comments as they will do nothing to ease the role of the profession, we are constantly having to battle negative attitudes towards us simply because of the job we do.

Posted By Peter Longworth "You tend to aquire these skills to an extent during further and higher education and then as your career progresses, but not if you left school, went straight into an apprenticeship and then a trade." Sir John Harvey Jones was obviously in completely the wrong job then