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Posted By Watto
Oh dear, it seems no one wants to be back at work.
I personally cannot see the problem with CPD, or CPD online, I registered today, had two questions which were answered over the phone and am already in the system after 10 minutes. Having just passed my NVQ level 4 and applying for Grad IOSH, really only means that to show a level of competence in the years ahead CPD can only help show this. If someone tells you they are a fellow of IOSH you can tell instantly they have a considerable amount of experience. As one person points out above if we want to be put in the same class as teachers, accountants etc. then we must act in the same way professionally. And by the amount of time some people had finished complaining about the whole thing they could have registered, recalled what they had been up to before Christmas and be half way through it.
Happy new year.
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Posted By Salus
MODS please don't stop this thread there is some great thoughts, ideas and issues here.
AHS,
so to keep up to date with any new legislation you cannot do this on your own then you must have someone to do it for you?
while at the same time have them and others control your career path
Hi Peter, when i said "expenses" i did not mean the cost of getting to and from a particular course but the actual course cost itself. The big CPD point winner courses are run by IOSH or someone approved by IOSH and are very expensive, and as IOSH have 28000 members and we all have to keep up our CPD and if we all spend at least £250 + that's a lot of extra money going IOSH's way every year.
This discussion is about the systems and policies that are being introduced by IOSH and whether they are fair, just and above all necessary.
I do not believe they are and if you are happy to stay in your present job until retirement, and your company wants you to also, (because you have proved yourself)then you need not undertake CPD.
But if you expect to change positions several times before you retire then you "must" because you are a member of the IOSH and they will downgrade you if you do not undertake CPD. That means no one will employ you without your credentials (which are your sign of competency,and have already achieved through IOSH/NEBOSH) because someone else who is right behind you has a higher grade by keeping up with their CPD will get the job.
If you were an architect or solicitor would they put up with this from the organisations that govern their professions?
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Posted By V Sams
I have watched this debate evolve with interest.
It is clear some favour CPD and others do not.
My original question hinged around the fact that I did Dip 1 to gain a professional designation, in the field I work in.
Dip 1 did not gain such designation on its own. You had to join IOSH to get the TechSP status, which became Tech IOSH.
Whilst I appreciate other professions having their own chartered institute with CPD, the same is not true of all, nor is the loss of designation upon entry to chartered status.
The analogy is more akin to sitting a degree or whatever, and then having your BSc or whatever removed, after you have passed the exam.
As for attending branch meetings to voice my concern, if you read the response above from the IOSH CPD boss, only corporate members were eligible to vote. So attendance at a branch meeting, for a Technician Member would achive nothing.
Remember the outcome of the vote by the few eligible members affected the eligible members and non-eligible members alike.
I have heard no rational debate to justify why Tech IOSHs were not allowed to vote, no why membership rules could not be changed to let the 'fors' and 'against' live in harmony.
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Posted By Salus
Arron you may have answered my last Q, but I will check, I am a safety guy after all.
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Posted By peter gotch
Peter L - I accept that many employers are still not clued up as to the various different grades of membership, but some do and will specify different levels depending on their needs [we have staff from Associate through to CFIOSH - with remuneration reflecting experience and qualifications]
When interviewing we have a specific question about how candidates keep up to date i.e. we investigate their CPD arrangements.
Descarte - to reinforce Jane's message CPD is not new. Have just completed my seventh cycle.
In the last five cycles my employer has bought me a total of six days external training inclusive of a 5 day IRCA Lead Auditor course whose content was largely so basic that I only claimed 4 points - i.e. it was worth 2 days CPD for me [and most of our other attendees]
Never had difficulty in running up at least 50% over the 20 points required in each cycle.
Most of it easily recorded on word files, so it does not need to be either expensive to do CPD or to manage the process.
Regards, Peter
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Posted By peter gotch
Sorry, Just read your message, Salus.
You might find the price of IOSH courses expensive, the point is that you do not need to attend these to fulfill CPD requirements.
However long I stay with my current employer they will expect me to do CPD to demonstrate that I keep up to date.
As happens a lot of our clients will also.
Last year one of our clients asked for the forward CPD plans looking 3 years ahead for the staff written into our bid. [Had to point out that we cannot always see into the crystal ball, and that one year previously I could not have anticipated needing to read up on Ukraine legislation and the like]
Regards, Peter
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Posted By I McDonald
V
Can not see your problem with CPD!!!! To achieve RSP you had to be registered on CPD. CMIOSH grades MUST continue on CPD.
"My original question hinged around the fact that I did Dip 1 to gain a professional designation, in the field I work in." Surely it was to gain the knowledge to allow you to undertake your role!!
"Dip 1 did not gain such designation on its own. You had to join IOSH to get the TechSP status, which became Tech IOSH." If Dip 1 did not hold such designation when you started why should it now!! IOSH do not do a Dip 1 - take it up with NEBOSH.
If you had attended branch meetings you could have raised your concerns with members who could then relay this to HQ.
If we have a grade of membership for every qualification differentiating between those on CPD and those who are not, were will it end? Grades for members with a BSc in underwater basket weaving.
Register on CPD like the rest of us do or call the Samaritans.
Ian
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I think it time to bring some clear thinking to this debate.
1) The courses run by IOSH Training Services Ltd are in fact led/tutored by external persons, some of whom are members, the bulk of the fee is paid to them.
2) IOSH TS carry all the expenses for food, printing, equipment etc - These are not a no cost item. The residual profit is marginal at best with some courses running at a loss. Any profits do go back into the general funds and thus in theory offset subscription charges.
3) The course costs are moderate compared to external providers.
4) CMIOSH or currently MIOSH will also return to the Affiliate grade if they cease CPD. It was corporate members who voted for this and thus it is not a case of looking after one's own nest.
5) Too many people are still transfixed by the idea that CPD means training courses. It does not - look at the online scheme guidance.
6) Also there is no fixed point allocation to an IOSH or any other course. It is up to the delegate to give a figure on reflection which may be 0 - 3 depending on the development value.
7) CPD covers more development activities than purely safety. It is any activity that improves you as a professional. It might be new software skills, it could be reflection on a book, it could be assisting a local nursery, in fact anything that you believe has contributed to your development. The reflection part of CPD demonstrates the value gained from the experience.
I am deeply puzzled though why people feel so anti recording of their professional development, as others have mentioned it is a fact of life now for all professions. I have been around in the IOSH system for more years than I care to reveal and do recognise that training courses seemed to hold pride of place in achieving CPD in the early days of the mid 1990s but we have tried to move on. Unfortunately as with most things the first understandings are very resistant to change.
Bob
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Salus,
Whatever profession you are in, CPD now is simply unavoidable, even if we did not seek Chartered Membership, I am sure that we would still be undertaking CPD both at technical or professional levels of our membership. For example if you join APS or register with IRCA, you are expected to undertake CPD. Even the IIRSM web-site discusses the benefits of CPD
In sort these days, how can you expect prove your ongoing competence without being registered on a recognised programme of CPD.
Professional Occupations are simply expected to have CPD.
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Posted By V Sams
For the sake of clarity Ian :-
1. I have taken it up with NEBOSH as a separate enquiry. (I am able to multi-task despite being a chap.)
2. I do not think there is any doubt whatsoever that 'goalposts have moved'. So firstly it was not what I signed up to, and secondly I think everyone should have been eligible to vote as we all pay our subscriptions.
3. There have been various assumptions that everyone wants to move up to MIOSH, RSP and Fellow, etc. What if I am happy with to remain TechIOSH ?
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Posted By Philby'
I have to agree with the point that VSams is making....if you did a degree, in any subject, you are entitled to use the postnominals that reflect that....
the degree I completed is now no longer available through any Uni, yet I can still use the letters
I think a 'run-out' period for those still progressing or a 'acknowledgement of past achievement' for those wanting to stay the same would have been perfectly acceptable.
However, where this differs is that the awarding body is NOT the same as the Institution despite the strides to egalatarianism and complementation.
As an aside, even though I have tried to complete online CPD with no luck, I will persevere, when I have the time, as I for one agree with it. Indeed coming from an auto-electrical background, if you don't keep up, you don't keep working!
Philby'
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Posted By I McDonald
Robert K Lewis
agree with your comments!
V
If you are happy to remain at TechIOSH, register and complete CPD. Its that simple.
Just consider for one minute that your job role changed (possibly without you being happy about it). Lets consider you are moved to worked full time in a QA role (personally seen many H&S professional shifted to environmental or quality roles). 2 years later you are not happy and decide to change back to H&S. As a person who is looking to employ you, how can you show that you have kept up to date with changes to H&S legislation and practice. Its simple - CPD. Many of the comments on thread have highlighted that CPD is not just about training courses it also includes other activities to allow demonstration of PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT.
Even though I was eligible to vote, I declined to vote on the mater as I was already required to conduct CPD due to being RSP at the time and felt CPD was beneficial anyway. I was however; well aware of the impending changes as they were well advertised and communicated (numerous articles in the SHP). My question is, why now? Although you were unable to vote, why did you not seek to air your views at branch meetings, direct to HQ, etc, earlier.
A number of contributors to this thread have identified that other professional bodies require CPD. Are we not a professional body? How seriously will our profession be taken if we can not be forward thinking and move with the times?
I appreciate that you may not want to progress to Chartered status however; the Royal Charter is a step in the right direction for the profession (NOTE: I did not say IOSH!!). I firmly believe that it will not be long before the IIRSM take a similar route and would welcome this.
CPD is now expected of those undertaking certain professional roles and the number of institutes/institutions will grow over time covering other job functions. At this moment in time it is the H&S Professions time for change. We can take this on board or move in another direction because we do not like the change. This is your choice. I personally would like to think you will register and participate in the scheme and change your mind about further progression to Chartered. We all know that our profession has a skills shortage as well (at least I think we all know and realise this).
I have read the full thread again before responding this, what will be my final, time. I can appreciate that other members in your position may be as unhappy as you, what percentage of the approx. 28,000 members is this? How will the percentage of those unhappy compare with those who are happy and see the benefits they will reap from the changes and the CPD scheme?
I also noted your point on will employers be happy with days off for training. Well if they are not, CPD is in your own time. This is not the BSC, IOSH is an professional body for individuals not organisations. CPD is down to each individual member (not their company although many support the process).
Ian
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Posted By V Sams
Thanks for that Ian.
The example you give is not comparable. All employers are required to consult employees on changes to their jobs. IOSH did not do that. If I move away to QA, and then move back, both changes are of my own making. These changes were forced on people without a vote.
It is clear you cannot see that. So lets agree to differ.
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
V Sams,
In the early 1990s, when practicing as a nurse, we had CPD imposed upon us by the UKCC without a vote and we had no choice in the matter. Fifteen years on, CPD is now considered to be the norm and sorry I see this as opportunity rather than a threat.
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Posted By V Sams
Two wrongs to not make a right.
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Posted By GSP
seriouslly what a plonka
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Posted By Salus
Vic and all contributors have a good one, i'm off for the weekend.
you can convince some of the people some of the time (but it is true), you cannot convince all of the people all of the time
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Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney
Amazing; 1200 hits and more than 50 responses. It certainly is an emotive subject and one of which one feels that IOSH may well look at in the future. One thing is for certain, when membership classification or on-line CPD is on the forum it becomes heated, interesting, and leaves one with a degree of puzzlement.
I for one am almost there at that point of CMIOSH, interview in 8 weeks time; I am over half a century in years but still very excited at achieving CMIOSH.
CFT. BSc (hons) grad IOSH MIIRSM dip RSA
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
Good luck CFT - knock 'em dead!
Alan (yes -the other one)
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Posted By michael anthony moran
Dear All,
I have read this thread with great interest.
For me it has been a long and sometimes very frustrating road for me to get this far in my health & safety career.
I think I may have a solution to the current CPD scheme and the concerns that our members have.
IOSH could give our members a choice on how to achieve their CPD 2 yearly cycle. For those less inclined to spend additional time in front of the computer, an option would be to utilise the CPD hardcopy folder and enter the data as per online CPD. Once this has been done, a review of that folder and its contents can be verified by the Secretary of your local IOSH Branch to confirm validity and give guidance if necessary before final assessment by IOSH.
This idea will get individuals more involved with their local Branch Committees and provide vital feedback to the individual on how to successfully achieve a balanced competency based CPD. The reflective evidence could be in the format of Context Statements similar to those used in the NVQ 4 OHSP and authenticated by your line manager or MD.
The other advantage,especially for those seeking full time employment or self employed, Ltd Company etc,that you can physically and readily take the hard copy CPD folder to potential employers and clients and show them your competency achievements. This may mean the difference between gaining employment or losing a golden opportunity. As we all know, experience is as vital as the qualifications we gain in our health & safety careers and potential employers and clients want to see that evidence from the outset.
I am a big believer in CPD and have been updating my REME CPD folder for the last 22 yrs of service. I know many friends who have not secured a job due to the fact they have not recorded and verified evidence in their CPD.
Anyway, I will stop waffling and hope this may be of some consideration and good luck to you all in your future careers.
Mike Moran
Grad IOSH
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I could not let some of the comments pass:
Ian
IIRSM will not be chartered as it is, by virtue of Privy Council rules - only a single chartered body per profession. They will need to change their purpose dramatically and not include OHS practice.
V
If you are happy as you are remember that you still have your qualification just as a degree holder has their degree. The postnomials for a degree are not equivalent to the membership of a professional body. In the latter case one has byelaws to meet on an ongoing basis or otherwise make a decision to leave or accept the current rules. We are therefore able to signify who is a member and at what level.
Others
I am totally bemused that online CPD is causing so much questioning and inability to understand the process. Perhaps it needs to be the Killer Question at Peer Interview:-) I am no more than clunky at IT yet I manage reasonably well.
I for one would not want a return to the mountains of paper and filing. The online system is far more efficient and far easier to audit - No one needs to forget to send off their paperwork and thus lose their status for non submission.
Bob
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Posted By Kat Shaw
I don't actually believe that CPD or the various IOSH designates denotes your true experience at all. All it does is make you to keep a record of what you have been doing.
Bit of background about me:
I have been working in the field of health and safety for 8 years (I know its not long by some peoples standards). I got my NEBOSH cert in the first year and kept up to date with health and safety by the usual ways - HSE web site etc etc.
As with most people when I first started working I needed all my money to pay off student loans and my morgage etc. Unfortunately as my employers were never willing to pay for my profeesional bodies fees I decided to keep the money for more useful things (food on the table, morgages, bills etc etc!!) I certainly couldn't afford to do the Diploma or any other big courses I had to make do with the smaller inhouse training my company provided and a shed load of reading from what ever the HSE produced.
Eventually I managed to pay off my depts (woohoo I am now morgage free at 30years old!! More by luck than by good financing) and am working for a better company that paid for me to do my Nebosh Diploma (NVQ)and am currently waiting for my final result as I had to resubmit my final assignment (For the record I managed my Diploma in 1 year)
In all these years I have never been asked for evidence of how I have kept up do date by any employers. Its just a natural part of any job - whatever work you do you keep up to date with changes in technology or legislation.
So basically I will have to do some IPD/CPD stuff soon (I need to sit down and read more about it!!)as I have recently joined as an affiliate member and want to progress. I doubt it will make me change my working habits all I will have to do is write down what I have been doing to keep up to date!!
Now I doubt that I am an anomoly in the health and safety field - we all keep up to date with out subject areas so what is the big problem with CPD?
Let's face it if you dont keep up to date then the company you work for will get into problems and someone may end up dead. So if it comes down to a choice betwen a bit more paperwork and someone I work with dying then hand over the paperwork!!!
Sorry for the rant!!
Kat
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Posted By Max Bancroft
One of the issues that has come out of this thread has been that only corporate members voted to change the membership structure. This is correct and the simple reason is that IOSH rules at that time only allowed corporate members to vote.
As I understand the number of corporate members who voted in favour was in fact a majority of the totality of all members.
The comments about you get a degree and keep the initials after your name for life are correct and a glorious red herring. A doctor who has the letters MB,ChB after his name and gets struck off by the GMC can't practice medicine!
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Posted By V Sams
Max - if IOSH rules only permit Corporate Members to vote, then the IOSH rules are either unfair or not well know by other membership grades.
As for being struck off, I do not think this is a comparable argument as this is beyond IOSH's powers - unless that is something else I have not read in their membership rules....
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Posted By Max Bancroft
Hi V Sams. Fair points - let me explain further.
I was a Associate when IOSH started out on its quest for Chartered Status and followed the topic with interest since I wanted to know what was happening with/to my professional body and how it would affect me in the future. I turned up to Branch meetings especially when there was a presentation on the topic to make my views known even though I knew that voting in IOSH was only by Corporate members.
The explanations/discussions were most helpful and certainly convinced me of the need for a formal system of CPD for all who wished to be H&S practitioners at whatever level. And it was clear that this formal CPD would not involve attending lots of expensive courses.
It would have been better if IOSH rules then had been like IOSH rules now and all could have voted then discussions like this and disgruntlement like yours could have been obviated. However, that wasn't the case.
My example of doctors was a bit extreme - perhaps the point I was making was that there is more to being in a profession than just having the initial qualification.
I had an interesting comment from my solicitor recently - I was trying to arrange a suitable date for me to go and see him and he ruled out certain days since he had to bring his CPD up to date and would be otherwise engaged.
So it's not just IOSH.
In terms of the mechanics of recording CPD I have found the on-line system reasoable to use although it has a couple of glitches.
If I was selecting candidates for interview for a post at Tech IOSH level, I would need some convincing to short-leet a person who had ganied the academic qualification but had let his membership be downgraded because he didn't feel the need to particpate in his professional body's CPD system.
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Posted By Warren Shaw
With reference to the following response along this line (see below).
How did Alan achieve CMIOSH if I did not? It's unfair to change the goal posts if people have entered a cycle from which they should get at the end what they were entitled to.
As a Tech member I completed a CPD cycle that ran from July 04 and was submitted in June 06. I have the Diploma Level 6. I have requested Chartered membership only to be told that I should be GradIOSH. It does appear from the mesaage below that there is some inconsistency and my two year cycle is only useful if hung on string next to the toilet.
Hi Vic,
I don't understand why you did not register on the CPD scheme... It is not expensive to achieve the necessary points.
I chose to join the CPD scheme when I was Tech IOSH grade (old version) and that, together with some other things, is why I'm now CMIOSH.
You have to be in it to win it.
Alan
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Posted By JPK
I am a little lost with this discussion!
As a professional, I would assume you would WANT to demonstrate, to yourself, not just to others that you are capable!
Is this not the case??
I began a CPD with IOSH as a lowly Affiliate, to demonstrate to myself that I was capable in my work, as my capabilities at H&S mean't the safety of others working for my company!!!!
Although I understand that it can be time consuming, and maybe costly to some, it is money well spent, no???
Hmmm... not sure why there is such a big debate, on something that ALL professionals in ALL industries must do to ensure we are regarded as professional and committed to being so!?
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
Warren,
In answer to your question, because I signed up for the CPD scheme as a TechIOSH over five years ago, I had already achieved MIOSH status before the changes took effect, so was automatically transferred to Chartered status.
Alan
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Posted By Dave Wilson
MMMM!
Nothing to stop you using Post nominal letters after your name if you have the requisite qualifications and no one can take that away.
Using Professional post nominal as a 'measure' of your 'professional standing' within a professional organisation are a separate thing.
If you do not want to sit the exams you cant get the academic qualifications and therefore No BSc etc
If you do not abide by the rules of the professional organisation then you cant use any 'professional' post nominal so NO CMIOSH.
Remember as well, that these 'rules' allowed us to get the 'Chartered Status' and allow a route whereby people not at the CMIOSH grade could progress and CPD is a part of that.
I understand the cost / time / employer wont pay etc etc which is also nothing to do with IOSH but can be free if you are clever with it.
In life there are winners and watchers, Do you want to win or are you going to watch it happen?
Do you want to improve or stagnate?
This is without doubt the leading H&S body in the UK / EC and these are the rules, so if they are totally against your principles then leave or join in and change from within!
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Posted By Alan Hoskins
What I meant, Warren, was TechSP
Sorry.
A
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Posted By JPK
Well said Dave Wilson!!
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Posted By ITK CMIOSH
There are winners and losers when any changes are made.
As a former Dip 1 Tech SP I was informed a long time ago about the impending changes to IOSH membership.
I too was dismayed that I was given the same standing as Cert holders, but I was lucky enough to have an employer who funded me further qualifications to achieve MIOSH and ultimately CMIOSH.
However I realise not everyone is so lucky.
If you are truly unhappy with IOSH then of course there you are free to join other organisations.
Best of Luck, ITK.
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