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#1 Posted : 07 February 2001 20:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig I'm interested in people's views on re-enactment groups being invited into schools to give presentations to children. Often these groups fire black powder weapons in this situation. Given that anyone with a shotgun certificate can acquire a cannon and form a group without any training or experience in handling weapons of this type, do people think this is acceptable?
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#2 Posted : 08 February 2001 09:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Taylor I'd be a bit nervous about these too. My experience has only been of seeing these groups at public events (that I was inspecting). The formula seemed to be drinking large amounts of alcohol and trying to knock nine-bells out of each other in fancy dress - resulting in not a few injuries. On one occasion a dog was hit by an arrow - and the owner wasn't too pleased either. I now await criticism from those who like dressing up as cavaliers and roundheads in their spare time. I suppose there must be some conscientious and safe groups around but you will need to check them out carefully by good references, etc and look at their risk assessments.
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#3 Posted : 08 February 2001 11:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig You're quite right in your assessment! The majority of these people have no proper training in the handling of black powder and black powder weapons, particularly cannon. I've been collecting and analysing the accident reports for some years and the results don't make nice reading. The fact is that these people are completely unregulated. One problem is that few H&S professionals have any experience of this activity and seem to rely on the groups' own risk assessments (that if if any are done at all). There is, I think a conflict of interest here. Has anyone else any comments?
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#4 Posted : 09 February 2001 10:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Dodson The HSE has a publication Acquisition and Use of Explosives by Historical Societies. It was published in 1998 and the ISBN is 0-71-761622-3. I assume it’s available from HSE Books. I am aware of an incident some years ago when a Re-enactment Society put on an event at a school fete. The event itself (where they beat hell out of each other on the school field) went off with no problems (other than to participants) mainly because the event was protected from the public by a fenced off no-mans land. However the Re-enactment Society had a small side-show. As part of this members of the public (adults) were permitted to fire muskets. As you might expect at a school fete a 5 year old pupil wanted a go. He persisted in the way that only 5 year olds can and his parents begged the representatives from the Re-enactment Society for him to have a go. Initially they refused but eventually gave in. They found a small musket (possibly one which had not been fired for some time?) and it exploded in his face (I think there is a technical term for this but I can't recall it). He was peppered with black powder (something which I believe will stay with him for the rest of his life). I seem to recall that the parents initiated civil proceedings but I have no knowledge about whether it succeeded or not. John
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#5 Posted : 09 February 2001 18:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig Unfortunately the HSE publication Acquisition and Use of Explosives by Historical Societies does not adequately cover use, or deal with "best practice". As there is no mandatory obligation for re-enactment groups to report accidents, or to monitor "INCI's", the one's I know about are probably the tip of the iceberg. Over the last 20 years, there has been almost one accident per year where a cannon operator has lost part of a limb, and many others involving injury to participants. There has also been incidents such as the one at the school, where a member the the public has been injured. Cannon barrels have also shattered, sending pieces of metal over a wide area. The HSE tend not to prosecute because the injuries do not happen "in the workplace". However according to RoSPA, the HSE do have a responsibilty for these events. At a concert at Castle Howard, cannon were brought in to accompany the 1812 Overture, and a cannon operator lost part of her hand. In that case, the local Trading Standards Office investigated and prosecuted. However it appears that they feel they should not only have prosecuted the person running the cannon company, but the orchestra management who hired the cannon company, and the Castle Howard management who hired the orchestra! Where then does this leave any organisation bringing in re-enactors for any event in this litigious age? Are risk assessments carried out for these events, and if so, who by? Can valid risk assessments be carried out by those who know little about black powder, and even less about the re-enactment groups? Has anyone ever been asked to do a risk assessment for a re-enactment event?
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#6 Posted : 11 February 2001 10:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Lucas Amanda, Firstly if the event is taking place on LA school property the HSE will enforce as it is a place of work. Quite frankly I would not recommend that you entertain the idea of inviting such groups onto your premises as canons and children do not mix very well. As the controlling mind for the premises your organisation will have a responsibility for the safety of the children - there is case law on this already with regard to firework displays. You probably do not have the inhouse expertise and so I would do all I could to prevent such an event. If things went wrong, then both the organiser and the 'performers' would be responsible for the safety of the event and liable to both criminal and civil action. It simply is not worth the risk. Why not hire a good film and let them watch it in comfort and safety. Hope this is helpful Andy
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#7 Posted : 11 February 2001 10:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig I agree with you Andy! I wouldn't invite re-enactors into a school at all. My problem is in getting this message across to schools and museums who seem to think that re-enactors are in some way "professionals", when all they've done is pay a membership fee. From my investigations, I am finding that organisations who use re-enactors, whether schools, heritage properties, charities etc., don't seem to carry out risk assessments. How does one get the message across that this is an activity which is potentially dangerous to both participant and to audiences? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them.
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#8 Posted : 11 February 2001 16:08:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Lucas Amanda, Maybe a gentle reminder that organisers can be held personally responsible for breaches of health and safety and hence prosecution may focus their attentions. If they cannot see the obvious risks then they probably do not have the publics best interest at heart. If this is the case then you need to go higher up the chain until you find someone with common sense. Good luck Andy
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#9 Posted : 11 March 2001 16:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian Hopkin Hi ! This is my first tentative step into the IOSH discussion forum, I am using the forum to gain knowledge as I am taking the NEBOSH cert in June. The subject you are discusing is of interest to me as I deal, professionally with the storage of explosives and weapons as part of my job as an armourer in the RAF. Bar your concern with re-enactment groups at the location of the display, there are other areas to be considered, those are the storage of the explosive medium and the security of the weapons themselves. The transportation and storage of the explosive to the site, depending on quantity, may require the operators to hold specific licences, and be able to store it in an authorised location.
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#10 Posted : 11 March 2001 20:21:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig You are right about needing the appropriate licences for the transport and storage of (in these cases) black powder. However, it would seem that not all re-enactors are aware of the need for these. It would also seem from reports made to me that not all local police firearms & excplosives officers are, shall we say ,"fully cognisant" of the law. In fact, few police firearms personnel receive any training at all in the activities of re-enactment groups. Re-enactment is an area which is largely unregulated. There is no mandatory obligation to report accidents, nor are "INCI's" recorded. We have a situation where anyone in possession of a shotgun certificate can set up their own re-enactment group, acquire a cannon, and put on displays for the public, including presentations in schools. I, personally, am not at all happy about this situation, having monitored at least some of the accdents and incidents that have occurred over the last 20 years.
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#11 Posted : 12 March 2001 08:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Taylor This brings us back to the need for risk assessments. Those organising such events need to be told that, as they are to be in control of the event, they will be at risk of prosecution if things go wrong and that they must obtain risk assessments for the performances and prepare risk assessments for the event (in accordance with HSG 195). These can then be brought before the police, fire authority, licensing authority, local, authority, etc as appropriate and the event only permitted after their approval.
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#12 Posted : 12 March 2001 10:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig You are absolutely right. Unfortunately it would seem that those organising re-enactment events or sponsoring them will not heed the message. There is also the problem of who could carry out such a risk assessment. As far as I am aware, none of the H&S courses include anything on the very specialised area of events involving black powder and black powder weapons. Last summer I looked at a large event hosted by a national heritage organisation. It was obvious that not only was safety being compromised, but also that explosives laws were possibly being broken. When I enquired as to whether a risk assessment had been carried out, I was told it had. Needless to say, I was not impressed.
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#13 Posted : 15 March 2001 10:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Tim Corbett Dear All, I am and have done Re enactment in schools and on large scale battles. I agree with some of the comments made above but would like to make some observations. In the time that we did visit schools to give talks on th English civil War. We set our own standards on display using a simular set up to a battle display. All firearm use was done by people who had passed a Musket test as set out by The Sealed Knot or the English Civil War Society.(ECWS). No child or Adult was allowed to hold any firearm that was loaded. Handling of the weapons (not live) was under close supervision and only in small groups. When we did these displays in schools we only did any Firing if requested to do so and made our own inspection of the site to ensure it was possible to do so. I am sorry if this is fragmented and brief but I should be working. I would be happy to give anymore infomation or help if wanted Tim Corbett tim.corbett@virgin.net
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#14 Posted : 15 March 2001 12:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bryn Maidment I have to say that I totally agree that controls are necessary in order to prevent injuries but am a bit dismayed with the 'not on your Nellie' responses that have peppered this thread. For the sake of a little work some seek to deny children the opportunity of bringing history alive in a way that no text book can. Another reason for people to bemoan the fact that " 'elf an' safety says no!". Reputable groups, risk assessment, trained staff, exclusion zone, other controls = safe, educational, enjoyable event. Go on, live a little you may even like it! Never say never, say how!
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#15 Posted : 15 March 2001 22:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By Brian Dawson Yes I agree. We should be trying to find ways of making it happen safely rather than always taking the easy option of saying no.
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#16 Posted : 16 March 2001 16:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By Amanda McCaig I'm all for ways of making re-enactment safer, especially in a school context. However, at present it seems that this activity is safe if those doing it say it is. I'm not at all sure that this is acceptable. I would be a great deal happier if re-enactment were subject to some degree of external monitoring of standards. Until this happens, it seems that no-one inviting re-enactors to put on a presentation has any way of assessing whether they are safe.
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#17 Posted : 19 March 2001 11:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bryn Maidment Amanda They need to be managed and controlled in the same way as any other contractor (the vast majority of whom are not externally standardised or monitored!). That takes a bit of work, and in a scenario like this maybe some research. There are organisations that deal in competencies such as the ECWS mentioned by Tim previously. It's up to the client to call the shots (literally) by laying down what they do - no muskets, no arrows, no noise, no excitement etc. I've been involved with a school who laid on a re-enactment and an it was an eventful (for there being no events)and very enjoyable afternoon. The schoolkids are still talking about it a year later!! Sorry to go on but I was a bit peeved about the negative way this original thread was going. A bit of work, research, lateral thinking at times and a willingness to help things progress(as opposed to smothering them at birth!)are required - the fact that the subjct is slightly off the wall shouldn't matter. I won't even mention my thoughts on the 'Street Juggler' thread - that was an even bigger hoot!!
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