Posted By John Bennett I am currently in the process of updating our smoking policy taking in to account some of the information supplied in passive smoking ACOP. A ventilation flow rate of 8 litres per second or (30m3/hour) is mentioned for non-smoking areas but normal fence sitting repsonse "the rate has to be increased to reduce ETS concentration levels". Can anyone advise on a suitable/sufficient flow rate? Thanks in advance, John

Posted By Ken Taylor I must admit to never having bothered to set an airflow rate for smoking rooms - other than to ensure that there was air extraction and a door self-closer to ensure that air moved so as not to allow the smoke to enter the corridor. The occupants are there to get the smoke into their lungs anyway. So far I have heard of no complaint by smokers that there was insufficient air extraction in their rooms.

Posted By John Webster Surely the relevant specification is "air changes per hour", as this takes account of the size of the room and therefore the potential number of smouldering fags which it can accommodate. As an ex 20-a-day man, I tend to agree with the other responses, but at least good ventilation might make the smokers stink a little less when they come back to work with the rest of us.

Posted By Ngaire Lowndes No problem about air flow in the job I'm leaving in a week, as the smoking room is the office manager's room, she smokes constantly, but insists on having her door OPEN so she can see who's coming and going.... nice airflow, taking smoke right out and into my working area. And she wonders why I'm leaving.

Posted By Ed Carter John, According to guidelines produced by a UK company who deal with such things. they recommend 50% increase for heavy smoking areas. So, given your figures that would be an extra 4 litres Hope it helps, Ed

Posted By Ken Taylor To Rob Todd. I certainly wish that the Workplace Regulations said more on this subject. However there are a couple of interesting points. Regulation 6(1) states that 'Effective and suitable provision shall be made to ensure that every enclosed workplace is ventilated by a sufficient quantity of fresh or purified air' and the ACOP (29) says 'The air which is introduced should, as far as possible, be free of any impurity which is likely to be offensive or cause ill-health'. In the situation under consideration, polluted air is being introduced to the work area from the smoking room. Regulation 25 (to which you refer) states (3) 'Rest rooms and rest areas shall include suitable arrangements to protect non-smokers from discomfort caused by tobacco smoke'. If the smoking room also serves as a rest room for smoking staff then non-smokers are not being protected by smoke that is not being prevented from freely entering the work area. My main point is that we are dealing with an employer that evidently appears to have little regard for the health or welfare of his employees and attention to the inadequate Regulations we have so far is still advisable.

Posted By Rob Todd Ngaire, Unfortunately there is not a lot you can do legally speaking. There are no precedential cases either in civil or criminal law concerning smoking in the office) Most smokers are reasonable (more than I can say for the no-smoking lobby fascists) and will attempt to try and ensure that suitably segregated areas are available. Can you not go above her head? Is it not possible for smoke extractors to be installed in her office? Cheers Rob

Posted By Rob Todd Ken, you seem to be under the misapprehension that everyone either hates smoking or wants to give up. There are a lot of us safety professionals who smoke, enjoy smoking, take a reasoned view on the hazards and know that "passive smoking" is a myth invented by ASH and their pschologically disturbed supporters. As I said in my last missive - most smokers are reasonable and will attempt to smoke away from non-smokers on the grounds of the smell (yes it gets in your clothes), people with respiratory problems (if known) and the general ambience of the environment. It is only the extremists on both sides who cause the major problems. The fact that IOSH "allow" smoking is probably on the basis that the venues concerned allow smoking and IOSH are not our masters to decide what we do. I hope Blairish dictatorship and meddling in personal lives does not become part of IOSH's thinking. What about segregated sections at conferences? One last point on the matter - stress seems to be a major point of concern in H & S at the moment - do you or any other non-smoker actually realise the stress that us lowly addicts go through when unable to smoke? This is both mental and physical. Why do you think that air rage has increased by such a massive amount SINCE THE BAN ON SMOKING (which incidentally has nothing to do with airlines looking after people - they now only use one tank of air instead of two saving vast amounts of money on each flight while increasing the spread of airborne disease -documented fact). As you can see, I'm having a bad hair day. Cheers Rob

Posted By Bryn Maidment Phew Rob!! For a reasonable smoker you sure do have a lot of angst and pent up stuff that smoking isn't releasing. Yes!, I am a vehement opposer of any smoking that impinges further on my ability to draw in clean air. My vehemence is in direct proportion to the 'couldn't give a monkey' attitude of the vast majority of smokers who light up and litter the place without regard for others. I know you'll have another smart reply do illustrate what a downtrodden lot you are, but basically - What part of "don't smoke near me" is it hard to understand? I bet you lob dog-ends out of your car window without thought for motorcyclists! ;-)) (nothing like an anti smoking motorcyclist to get YOU going!) ps bet your nervous leg is twitching reading this!

Posted By Vince McNeilly John One way of tackling the issue would be to set a value of air changes/hr. ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists. 23rd edition) as a general rule of thumb recommend for offices and similar types of premises an outdoor air supply of 0.5-0.6/hr/m2 of floor space will give good results for odour control. General ventilation is the issue here and will be best addressed by an Occupational Hygienist. You could try to post a question on the British Occupational Hygiene Societies web site (www.bohs.org) I hope this helps. Vince

Posted By Rob Todd Ken, you do have misapprehensions about smokers in the very fact that you seem to seem to classify them all as the same, and as a somewhat subhuman group. This is a very bigotted view and if you did this about some other minority group i.e. disabled or ethnic, you would be vilified. Talking about polluting the air, I'll bet you have a car, use aerosols and burn gas, which are far more polluting than cigarette smoke. Remember that you have a duty to look after all your staff, not just the one's you happen to agree with. What's your position on stress - you'll find that the most stressed people are those who are restricted from smoking (but I suppose this doesn't matter to you as they are all mentally deficient. The smoking debate could go on for years, and, as we seem to agree on most other subjects related to safety, I think I'll make this my last comment on the matter. Best wishes and I look forward to being on the same side as you on the next debate. Rob

Posted By Rob Todd To the moderators - HOW DARE YOU MAKE SUCH A COMMENT!!!!! Who gives you the right to decide where and when a LEGITIMATE health & safety subject is debated. You are there to ensure that there is no bad language and offensive material is removed and that is it!!!! I cannot believe your ARROGANCE in trying to sensor people in airing views on any safety issues. Sensorship belongs in dictatorships. If you are referring to my debate with Ken it might be worth noting that WE both have a sense of humour which it appears that you seem to be completely lacking. Don't even think of sensoring this response and I feel that all those who took part in the debate deserve an apology from yourselves.

Posted By Lance Morgan Anybody got a light?

Posted By Tim Dear moderators Lighten up. This is the most amusing debate for a while. Perhaps a good lung full wouldn't do you any harm. Well said Rob. Tim P.S Arran for someone who cries "foul" to the moderators from time to time its interesting to note that you have 'come out' and declared that you are one of this elite group.

Posted By Ian Harper and another thing, John has not commented! Have we helped John? Please tell us where you are, what the details are and has this discussion helped you at all? Quickly before we divide the safety community!

Posted By John Bennett I cannot reveal my whereabouts at this moment in time due to the fact that I am being pursued by the IOSH Moderators Team and am changing my abode on a daily basis. In reality my wife gave birth to our second child Hannah in January and I took some extended R&R. I would like to thank Ed Carter who provided me the answer I sought and everyone else who contributed (inc. THE MODERATORS), as I have had great enjoyment on my first day back reading all the replies. kind regards to you all, John Bennett