Posted By Nicky Hi, I am unfamiliar with the IEE regs, and have just been into a new building (to use for a Risk assessment workshop!), and there is a double socket over a sink - I know it shouldn't be there but what do I quote to the architect? Regards Nicky

Posted By Nicky Sorry, I don't have a copy of the IEE regs. I am going to use the MHSWR but like you I am sure that sockets should be at least 1m away, but as I said I don't have a copy so cannot quote the exact section etc. Regards nicky

Posted By Graham Bullough One or more persons has got it wrong - either the architect with his/her design or the electrician who installed the socket or the plumber who fitted the sink - and should have queried the presence of the sink or socket. Perhaps the electrician wasn't qualified in which case there may be other less obvious faults with the electrical installation! As other respondents have suggested, technical guidance about how far sockets should be from a sink is no doubt specified in the latest IEE Regulations. From a quick glance the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 merely state that electrical equipment exposed to wet, corrosion, dust, etc. should be specially designed to avoid danger. My approach to the architect, etc. would be along the lines that you were very surprised to see the socket above the sink - surely he or she knows that "electricity and water are dangerous companions" or some similar adage. Even if the socket circuit is protected by an RCD, the socket should be relocated. RCDs are great, but should never be regarded as infallible - and in any event are no excuse for sloppy installations. If the socket remains in its present position, it is likely to be used by people with wet hands, have kettles and other equipment plugged into it, and such equipment is liable to get knocked into the sink and electrocute somebody. One of my standard questions to people who will not take action about potentially lethal situations is "if someone is killed or seriously injured by this situation - which you think is okay or you don't want to do anything about it, how will you explain this to a deceased person's relatives and to a court?" Point out the shortcoming with the socket to relevant people and keep a note of who you told, where and when. If feasible, confirm your advice to them in writing. If the socket and sink are already in use, ask for the socket to be promptly taped over and for a clear label to be put on or near it with the advice "danger - do not use socket". This will provide an interim means of minimising the danger which arises from continued use of the socket.

Posted By Ken Taylor This has been a poor, but widespread practice for years. Unfortunately in some circumstances it has been hard to avoid (eg very small kitchens). The IEE Regs only make specific reference on this subject to bathrooms and certain other water risk areas (eg swimming pools) but the general principles of protecting persons from electric current and socket outlets from water ingress will apply together with the risk assessment approach under Electricity at Work and Management Regs. Whenever I have come across this situation in workplaces, I have have either asked for relocation or, if not practicable, conversion to a 30mA RCD-protected socket.

Posted By Nicky Thanks all, There is another double socket over 1m away on the work surface. As part of a workshop we are looking at risk assessments and this is an ideal training exercise, we are using the new building to set up risks and it seems that we don't have to "set up" too many as they are already built in! I was certain that there would be a statutory distance from a sink as 1m has always stuck in my mind.(Perhaps it is a rule of thumb.) I will bear in mind RCD's etc as control measures, but there is no real need for this socket.

Posted By Nicky Cheers Ken - that is probably where I got the distances from in the dim and distant past. regards Nicky

Posted By George Wedgwood John appeared to touch on the key point of earth bonding after all the discussion about risk assessment, which indeed is the type of process considered in the IEE 'Wiring Regs'. The trouble with the those Regs is that you need specific training to be able to use them correctly and practical people usually find the IEE 'On-Site Guide' or the ASEE 'Illustrated Guide' to the Regs, much better in helping you decide how the system components should be installed. It is normally accepted by installers (including good kitchen companies) that they will not install a socket outlet within 1 metre of a sink unit. The reason for this is that, due the requirements of the Wiring regs, earth bonding is essential if the 'touch distance' can be less. Sure, that is a matter of judgement for them but when I install, I always make sure every piece of 'extraneous conducting material' is solidly earth bonded with 10 or 6 mm earth cable, using the required attachments and aluminium labels to warn of disconnection. The others are also right in some of the comments about the appropriate degree on water ingress protection - and this should be assessed before installation. I would not want an IP56 socket outlet over my sink! However, if it is within 1 metre but away from direct splashes (how wet can you get?) then so long as the bonding is in place and there is a 30 ma RCD in circuit, I believe that would satisfy any risk assessment. P.S. I have two sockets in my kitchen that are less than one metre from properly bonded steel sinks, with separately mounted bonded taps. Of course it is no use having all the distance and bonding in place if you use an old electric kettle near a sink - that too should be examined regularly for cable and connector defects to prevent the conducting parts becoming accidentally live - if they do, the RCD may work OK but for a frail person, the shock from touching the kettle and sink together could be too great. The clear message is a good design and installation standard by a competent person in partnership with a sound maintenance regime to ensure everything stays safe. That is why the new Building Regulations, due in 04 I think, will specify that 'Competent Persons' must be employed to install and modify all electrical systems in the future - just like the Gas Regs! George