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Posted By PETER GANNAWAY
I have just completed a h&s audit requested by the LEA on behalf of a school. The document required an annual check of the fire alarm system, and evidence that fire practices were undertaken. There was however no mention of suitability of smoke/fire detector systems, or training in the use of extinguishers. I noticed that there are very few smoke detectors in the school, none in IT suites and those in use were of a basic woolworths, domestic premises type. I was astounded to find from the local fire service that a school is not required to install detection systems. The building is full of stuff most people would throw out, eg old cornflake boxes, mountains of paper and other combustible materials hoarded in any vacant space.A proper fire assessment will be conducted, but as there appears to be no legal obligaction to install detection systems, the chance of spending money in that area, when there are shortfalls elsewhere in the budget (ie teachers wages), is very doubtfull. As a primary school there is less likliehood that kids will be having a crafty drag in areas where they shouldn't be, but given the build up of combustible materials, the outcome of any fire could be horrific. As an aside I also noticed no one was trained in the use of extinguishers, the reason being that in the case of fire the teachers get the children out and wouldn't attempt to re enter. My question is what if it is a small bin fire, or god forbid a child is on fire?
How do other schools address these important issue.
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Posted By Nigel Hammond
I work for a charity that runs facilities for people with learning disabilities. We have smoke detectors in every compartment in our two schools.
Have you seen page 14 of the HSE/Home Office 'Fire Safety - an employer's guide? This allows for not having detectors in small premises where fire is unlikely to cut off a means of escape. However, it requires automatic fire detection in larger premises in which there are un-occupied areas where a fire could delevop before people become aware of it.
We were recently told by the brigade in Leicester that one of our care homes had to be improved because it did not have smoke detection in roof voids and broom cupboard-sized boiler rooms - even though every room in the building had smoke detection - they said that it failed because it is not an 'L1' system. To be an L1 system, there must be a smoke/heat detector in every compartment.
We have sites up and down the country. Brigades seem to vary in terms of their advice and willingness to help.
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Posted By Paul Cook
Lol,
welcome to the education sector, i work in a reasonably large secondary school (1000+ persons on site) just outside london and the problems you`ve seen first hand are only the tip of the iceberg.
Picture the store cupboard you mentioned, crammed full of paper and cornflake packets, (a hazadous, but relatively low risk affair) now add 4 gallons of spirit based paint, some old duplicating fluid that nobody can be bothered to dispose of and chuck in maybee some meths or an old bottle of what smells a bit like white spirit balanced precariously on the top shelf in its glass jar, finish with an australian art teacher with a blatent disregard for anybodys health and safety - bingo now we`re talkin risky.
unfortunately scenearios like this are typical in many schools, the LEAs health and safety department may only consist of a couple of people, thats two people spread between maybe 70 sites and in many cases they are only responsible for highlighting the issues the funding still has to come directly from the school.
when i recently discussed the installation of a new fire alarm system (only to p1) with the headteacher she felt that the £20,000 would be better spent on some paint for the corridor, some shrubs in the gardens and some new office furniture. we ended up with about 10 grand and a manual (m) system.
The DFES do have a guide book somethin like "guide to fire safety in schools" on their website, but generally the lack of good advice isn`t the problem its the lack of funding and the very low risk perception of some of the people within the schools who do hold the limited money thats gonna get people killed.
Paul
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Posted By Harry Mooney
I must say I'm not surprised at the comments here. Having worked in a Local Authority Education department (with an estate of almost 30 secondary schools, 200+ Primary schools, 100+ Nursey establishments, 30+ Special Needs schools), devolved budgets left the Education Dept with a substantially reduced pot with which to maintain the schools, supply many of the basics required, and yet also allow for the improvement of school facilities. Head Teachers had their own agendas (staffing etc) and would argue that they did not have the funds required for many H&S issues brought to their attention, claiming it was the Education Dept responsibility to carry out such work.
This in turn meant that some form of prioritisation had to be decided upon, often delaying work in one school while funding to allow H&S work was diverted to another. You can therefore appreciate the attraction of Public Private Partnership (PPP)where much of the "estate" responsibilities could be off-loaded by the Local Authority.
Primary schools usually have displays on walls by the children (to encourage self development and self expression and team building)and it is trying to achieve a balance with H&S which takes time and effort. Teachers often think "education" is the priority, while the H&S staff try to emphasise the need for instance for safe working practices, good storage practices, and a responsible attitude to safety.
It's not easy being a Safety Officer in the Education sector.
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Posted By Zoe Barnett
I'm the H&S manager for a medium-sized LEA and I'd agree with the comments above - especially those about resources.
The thing that really bothers me about school health and safety is the way that under fair funding local authorities are charging schools for competent health and safety advice, even though as the employer it is their duty to provide it. I know it's different with foundation schools, I know it's been agreed by the HSE, but my own personal opinion is that it is only helping to make H&S something that is seen as an additional luxury rather than a fundamental need.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
In my local authority days, Zoe, I also saw the recharging (with on-costs) of other departments for health and safety work as a real disincentive to promoting health and safety and with consequent wastage of officers' time in completing daily work record sheets - and so resisted it to the last. Fortunately I do not have this problem in this part of the independent education sector.
LEAs, Fire Authorities and Ofsted should require evidence of school fire risk assessments and we have had to provide these. Human noses can be a very efficient fire detection system for continuously occupied areas and so the need for automatic fire detection is principally for unoccupied areas and boarding schools. This has been our approach - except that one school includes Grade 1 Listed buildings dating from the 12th Century and so has a comprehensive AFD system throughout to help compensate for fire risks from the nature of its construction as well as its irreplaceable value to the Nation as a former archbishops' palace.
Schools can carry a considerable fire-loading - not the least from the constant desire of teachers to display combustible art-work and the like in corridors and on stairways and so constant vigilance and frequent inspections are very desirable. another fire risk is from wedged-open doors and we have resorted to magnetic holders (connected to the fire-alarm system) in many cases. Arson by intruders is also an increasing fire risk in schools and so security should be seen in terms of fire risk assessment and prevention.
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Posted By Bill Bircham
Peter,
To try and address your problem rather than bemoan the situation, the following may help
The school is a workplace and there for duties fall upon the Head Teacher, and most importantly, the School Governors to provide a safe workplace, this includes adequate fire precautions. That is hopefully clearly understood by them, if not your report should perhaps point this out. Getting them to do anything about it is where the difficulty lies, but perhaps the following understanding of schools budgets may help.
Most schools have within their budgets a line called capital formula which is money earmarked for new buildings or substantial improvements (not to be confused with a maintenance budget). Due to the financial system, most schools roll this over from year to year unless there is a real need. It sounds like you have a real need here.
The fire assessment will point you in the right direction for the final solution to which this capital formula should be addressed. A word of warning here, is was agreed by the Government earlier this year that schools could, for this year only, use this money as they see fit in response to shouts of foul play re the budget disaggregation and the threats of school closures when the money runs out.
In the interim, the HT & Governors should be strongly advised to take some interim steps such as housekeeping, staff training, fire drills with pretend fires blocking one or more escape routes.
In summary,
Tell them they need to o some immediate, very cheap actions now, then seek to use the capital formulae (If not already spent) to install upgrade their system.
Finally, it can’t be all bad. If they have gone to the effort of installing Woollies fire / smoke alarms, at least they have some inkling of a problem (they did work didn’t they?)
Regards
Bill
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Posted By Andy Farrell
Hi Peter, your thread appears to be focusing upon fire detection, rather than upon fire prevention. You need to ensure that your fire risk assessments identify areas of significant risk e.g. your broom cupboards and put in measures to prevent the fires from actually occuring e.g. by removing and correctly storing flammable materials, eliminating ignition sources etc these are typically low cost or no cost measures which can be simply applied and which will afford you a certain level of protection. This is not to say that you might not need a fire detector, but merely that the chance of a fire starting in the first place is reduced.
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Posted By Jane Blunt
Picking up on some of the other points - it would be nice if some of the staff at least were able to use a fire extinguisher in order to be able to ensure a safe means of escape. Nevertheless, using the fire extinguisher should always take second place to raising the alarm and evacuating the children.
Fire extinguishers are not suitable for extinguishing flames if a child is on fire - the correct course of action is to get the child on the floor and smother the flames.
You should not promote fire extinguisher training on these grounds.
Jane
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Posted By Ken Taylor
God extinguisher training should also include the use of fireblankets.
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