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#1 Posted : 09 July 2003 23:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Hello,
This is my first thread on this site.

I am currently working in a factory for the summer.

Management have decided that there should be no chairs for people to sit on and therefore we are required to stand for 2 hours at a time in front of a machine.
(we get a 15 minute break every 2 hours)

I'm a very active person, and don't like sitting down all day. My concern is that the machine I operate requires you to stand in ONE SPOT and after 2 hours, my feet are swolen, circulation is affected, and lower joints are hurting.

Today I found a chair as I was in agony. I was asked to stand and the chair was taken away from me.

I can see no Health and Safety reason why chairs should not be allowed.

Everyone complains (to each other) but it seems that no one is willing to challenge this decision by management who sit in nice comfy leather chairs all day.

Does anyone else have the same dilema?
Is there a Health and Safety rule against this, or any Directives that will give me guidance on this? Or, more concerning, is this acceptable practice and I should 'suck eggs'like everybody else?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

I have become very bitter and twisted over this and I have only worked 4 shifts.!!!!!!!!Joke.....

Thankyou for your time.

Polly
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#2 Posted : 10 July 2003 08:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Pollybee

If you are in the UK, the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations apply. These state that 'a suitable seat shall be provided for each person at work in the workplace whose work includes operations of a kind that the work (or a substantial part of it) can or must be done sitting.'

Paul
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#3 Posted : 10 July 2003 09:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
But being realistic:

It would hardly seem worthwhile starting a battle for a temporary summer job that could take some time and whilst it is going on you are causing damage to yourself.

Have you had these symptoms before and should you be seeking medical attention.

You may have to stand in one place but could you do leg, feet and toe exercises.

Is the factory unionised - if so take it up with the safety rep.

Of course, if the other operatives are used to this way of working you may not get their support.

Despite what the law says - my suggestion would be, if none of the above work, is to consider employment elsewhere. The last thing you want to do is damage your health through a point of principle in a temporary job.

Geoff
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#4 Posted : 10 July 2003 09:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jack
I know you like to lean towards the pragmatic Geoff but I'm still a little surprised at your response. I hardly think this is being raised as a 'point of principle'. Temporary workers often get the [expletive deleted]ty end of the stick without being told by the safety professionals 'to get another job' as soon as they raise a h&s concern.
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#5 Posted : 10 July 2003 10:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian Minty
There is anti fatigue matting available that claims to reduce stress on feet and legs by up to 50%. If the job has to be done while standing then at least this may help.
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#6 Posted : 10 July 2003 10:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Have you tried a bit of 'subtle' whistleblowing to the HSE, seems a bit of a draconian practice to me and maybe your employers need a bit of a kick up the preverbial, what about the local newspaper may be good 'copy' for them!

Out of interest does this 'work' involve targets and would sitting make you less productive?

what about a happy workforce being a productive workforce.
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#7 Posted : 10 July 2003 10:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Thankyou so much for all your replies.

I found the statute you refered to ,The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 (S11) and I suppose I'm even more bitter and twisted now.!!!

So I am now going all out for this company, job or not.

There is no union, but a HR department is in place.!!

Is there an independant agency that I could approach first, or do you think I should try the HR route first.??

I suppose that I am lucky in that this job is only for the summer. My colleagues are there full time, have mortgages to pay and families to support. They feel that their hands are tied as they dont want to jeopradise their jobs.

Once again thankyou for your replies.
Anymore advise would be greatly appreciated.

Polly



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#8 Posted : 10 July 2003 10:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Eric Burt
Absolutely Jack - totally agree.

Many Health and Safety Professionals and others have worked damned hard over the years to get ALL employers to protect the health and safety of all employees, no matter what size of company. And I mean ALL employees - temporary, permanent, full time, part time, young, old, pregnant etc etc.

Remember - the company is getting the benefits of Polly's labours - the least they can do is treat her properly, never mind the legal arguements.

Take this all the way Polly - the law is on your side and you will find that you will probably be helping your colleagues in the process.

There is too much of this flouting of the law by SME's and I can't see how the proposed 5% reduction in HSE will help this.

Eric
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#9 Posted : 10 July 2003 11:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jamie
Polly,

I suggest you raise it with the HR dept first and see what the reaction is, but it is worth considering talking to you local Citizens Advice Bureaux first and ask them if they will help you.

Alternatively you could speak directley to you local HSE office.

Good luck

Jamie
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#10 Posted : 10 July 2003 11:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Hello,

As far as I am aware, the reason that we are not allowed to sit down, is not because it would affect production output, or the chairs would cause another safety issue, but because it looks unprofessional.(pathetic)

The same as with the radio, we are not allowed to have the radio on during the day while management are about because it is too unprofessional. But I can live with that.


Another reason I was given, was because an empolyee was found to be falling asleep whilst sitting at a machine on the night shift. So instead of repremanding that person, chairs were taken away from all departments and put in storage in another part of the factory. (this rule by the way was created a few months ago)

There are some machines that have chairs. But the only people who are allowed to operate these machines are the people who have produced a medical certificate from their doctor stating that standing for long periods would be detrimental to thier health. If you are a back sufferer, then you have to provide medical evidence then you get a chair to sit on.

I'm grateful for the educated responses from you all. Thanks.
Polly

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#11 Posted : 10 July 2003 12:06:00(UTC)
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Posted By Steve Wood
Polly

On the face of it, the company don't have a leg to stand on (sorry, couldn't resist it), and I can't remember hearing anything quite so pathetic as hiding those chairs away! Go for it!

However, you don't mention exactly what the work is, so bear in mind that even if "they" say there's no reason for standing, some tasks may be more difficult/hazardous (e.g. lifting, twisting) when seated.

On the realism side, considering the attitude they seem to have, I expect you to be looking for alternative employment by the weekend. Let us know how you get on. Good luck!
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#12 Posted : 10 July 2003 12:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Hello,

Thanks for your reply too.

The only twisting that is involved is when you get off the chair. But even here the chairs are swivel ones so can easily use the correct standing to sitting motion without twisting.

There is know heavy lifting involved as the product is plastic and very light. We do 500 in a tray and even then the tray is light.

We put the product in one end of the machine, this involves a bit or reaching, even standing, then it comes out the other end, a bit of reaching again, then into the tray on the trolley.

The short time that I have sat down (this was before I was asked to stand and the chair taken away) I could foresee no immediate risk or hazard to myself, or other employees.

I think it is purely jumped up little small time management with cheap suits and nats pee aftershave. (sorry couldn't resist that)!! I say that also because at the weekends, of which I am doing this weekend coming, (12 hrs) the chairs appear when management isn't around. They are put back in storage by Monday!!

It is strange too that when I mentioned to the team leader that the agency that sent me to this job didn't mention to me I would be standing the whole shift, his reply was 'they don't know', grinned and walked off. But reassured me I would have the option of a chair at the weekends. !!

Yes I will let you know how I get on and thanks for your advise.

Polly





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#13 Posted : 10 July 2003 12:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
What I was trying to say was - the legal position may be on your side but sometimes, and if serious symptoms are being experienced, it might be better to just get out of it.

By the time you've sorted it out, if ever, you may have done irreparable damage.

I feel that's a realistic point of view - but ..... obviously not to some.

Geoff

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#14 Posted : 10 July 2003 13:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian Bruce
I may be missing something here, but I'll have a go anyway:

Surely a "suitable and sufficient" risk assessment on this process would identify worker fatigue and discomfort as a potential hazard? If so, then control measures need to be put in place.

I went through the same scenario when I worked for a chemical process company where operatives were expected to stand and work on concrete floors for up to 12 hours. In our risk assessment, we considered chairs, that could be used whenever the process allowed them to be, but these presented hazards themselves (trips etc). In the end, we invested in anti fatigue matting (which if memory serves, big car plants use for the same reason) and provided safety footwear with "air soles". The combination of these made a tremendous difference to those working in the plant.

It would be interesting to have a look at this companies absence records to see if back problems and circulation related issues predominate. The back problems would be interesting, not only as Polly identifies individuals within the factory who are allowed chairs because of this, but also because she claims manual handling is not an obvious potential hazard.

To sum up; where's the risk assessment? Have you seen it? Is it any good? And one final thought, what sort of training have you received?

Regards,

Ian.
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#15 Posted : 10 July 2003 13:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By peter gotch
Pollybee,

Assuming you could do with the money, and don't want to be out of the door tomorrow, my advice would be to have a quiet word with the HSE, pointing out your precarious employment position and highlighting need for subtle approach to investigation of your complaint. Also point out that your permanent colleagues are also complaining but reluctant to speak out.

HSE are committed to keeping the sources of complaints anonymous when requested. In your case an Inspector SHOULD NOT be going straight to the issue of seating but is likely to come across this during the course of inspection of broader issues, possibly homing in on chairs via one of their current targets, ie work related upper limb disorders.

If you go to HR first (a) they probably won't do anything effective taking into account the medical certs etc and (b) when the big bad Inspector comes in someone will smell a rat.

There may be wider ergonomics issues which may not be immediately apparent.

Many, many years ago when I worked as an HSE Inspector, I received a telephone complaint from one of the union reps in a food factory employing about 600.

Management had decided that SIX chairs on the first floor were no longer hygienic and replaced them with TWO.

The complainant confirmed that the six chairs had previously been used, ie four were not simply gathering dust.

My reaction to this was to ring the site H&S officer and point to the relevant legislative requirement [similar to that now in the Workplace Regs] indicating that I did not expect to get involved in matters which should be resolved between management and workforce - and indicating that if I had to intervene and concluded that the complaint was justified I would consider the appropriate enforcement action ie prosecution or improvement notice.

A couple of months later we went through a repeat of these discussions, with my advice just a little firmer.

Eventually I found myself in the factory to investigate the accident.

Unusually it was not just the workers kept in the dark basement, but also the production manager who launched into a diatribe about these complaints. So I asked him to accompany me to the first floor....

As we exited the stairs I saw a women packing the product into cardboard boxes and said "she could be doing that job seated".

The production manager pointed out that this was NOT the location of the complaint!! At this stage my interest started to broaden fairly dramatically, identifying well over 200 locations where it appeared that seating should be appropriate.

I invited HSE's first ever ergonomist to take time out of the Sheffield labs to come up to Scotland.

Advice - at most of the locations, eg at production lines, seats not suitable since reach distances too great BUT reach distances also too great standing.

HENCE - need for occupier to REDESIGN the production lines to facilitate reduced reach (and thence also approx 200 seats of various types)

In the meantime, approximately 40 workstations were suited to seating being provided (including in some cases sit-stand chairs @ about £60 each in mid 1980s)

Management seemed less than totally impressed by the cost escalation from what started of as four chairs.

Good luck

Peter







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#16 Posted : 10 July 2003 13:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
It does seem quite draconian that you have to stand for your shifts and agree that action should be taken.

However, on the other hand I also agree with Geoff, yes you do have the same rights to h&s as normal employees - but then you do seem to be getting the same treatment. As a temporary employee by your own admission you are not so tied as permanent employees who fear for their jobs and you do have the option of leaving before you feel you are doing damage to your health. Sometimes it is better to fight this from the outside and report it to the HSE once you are secured in another job. Also, recommend you report this to your agency so they don't send anyone else there without knowing the situation.

They may not, actually, be acting illegally, if they can prove that there is no opportunity to sit down in the job then they have no need to provide chairs, the shift is 2 hours and I assume they provide seating between shifts so presumably this has been risk assessed and someone has identified that 2 hours with a 15 minute sit down break is acceptable.

I'm not saying it's right and I wouldn't allow it at my place but neither can I categorically say that it is wrong without seeing the type of work you are doing for myself and examining the working area.

Hilary


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#17 Posted : 10 July 2003 15:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Gavin Gibson
Polly

Maybe you should ask your HR people if they would like to spend a whole shift working at their computers whilst standing up? This smacks of collective punishment, incompetent supervision and extremely bad work practise. Unless this is work required for a job expereince or sandwich placement I would tell them where to go and why. then get a job at your nearest supermarket / DIY store - better conditions.
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#18 Posted : 10 July 2003 17:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Diane Thomason
Just to add to what others have said, I agree that a chat with the HSE might be a good idea and there is some advice on this at
http://www.hse.gov.uk/workers/help.htm

In your original posting you state that you and other workers are being/have been harmed in the course of carrying out your work, so it seems there is a genuine safety issue here. In the absence of a safety officer or a union H&S rep there aren't many other sources of help. Going to the HR dept can sometimes be a bit like asking the foxes for advice on protection of the local chicken population.

Surely in a factory the "it looks unprofessional" argument is completely false. Presumably you're not a factory work display team or something??!

It's so depressing to hear of this kind of thing going on in this day and age - OK it's not about imminent risk of death, but the attitude of the management and the culture of fear that prevents employees from challenging them is exactly the way that more serious H&S problems develop.

I wish you the best of luck in getting some action here.

Regards

Diane
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#19 Posted : 10 July 2003 18:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason Gould
Hi polly

Your not alone here

Ive been studying safety courses and done a couple.

As others have stated legally you might be stuck.

Morrally your very right.

I still do the odd agency jobs while studying as i have not found a suitable safety position as of yet. I have been in many jobs and for many companies. I suspect your in the moulding department probably injection moulding. in most places that ive worked there was never any chairs allowed but these were big companys that have production gurus coming on site to improve time & motion.

By the way your not in manchester ru.

Some of the earlier comments are OTT and i feel that Geoff and Hilary have hit the nail on the head. The only way this could be resolved would be for the workforce to get together and voice their disapproval but in doing so look at the managments points of view i.e. sleeping at stations which does happen and offer alternatives as pointed out earlier. If this does not work go to war with them but this will mean you will lose your job as in my experiance agencys are not loyal the its staff when s**t hit the fan.

Her are just a few facts as in my experiance.

1. 12 hr shifts are bad and worse standing up but we as employees somtimes are reluctant to express this as we think it portrays a sign of incompetence.

2. Agencies portray a wonderfull ethos to companies about their safety traing of their staff. Out of ten agencies 1 give me an overview and when i complaine about the dismal conditions of one place which involved blocks of molten plastic firing out of a vac pump every 10 min i was asked not to attent to recruitment agency again.

3. One compnay like yours saw this problem and re-instated seats also a small table and then lots of quality checks and documents to be done in between cycles, it was ok cos they wanted quality recognition so were prepared to invest.

4. if this as only started recently then to go whisleblowing straight away cos of first objections is a little out of order however some company aknowledge no-one unless there either a customer or factiry ispector look at both roots i.e. press etc but as a last resort sod you have this attitude.

Enough of the drabble just dont put the companys back against the wall and expect flowers. Offer alternative ideas and objections and if this fails leave the job and write to all the companies customers expressing your dismay that they would use such an incodiderate supplier (hope some recognises how vindictive i am getting here)

Good luck and soak those feet it works wonders, even though you should not have to.
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#20 Posted : 10 July 2003 18:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason Gould
Sorry all about the dismal spelling. was cooking at same time.

Word & spellchecker are my best freinds.

Have just read over my comments and come to the conclusion we can all sometimes waffle on but if i recall i never even reported the dismal company to the hse which in someway will make me guilty for someones accident as i knew the state of the place and the disregard of the owners in their approach. They talked their safety but never put anything in place. In fact tommorrow i am calling the hse and having a chat with them as someone could be killed. Thanks all for pricking my concience.

So pollybee good luck in your quest and to all others reading this we all know the companys is in the wrong but what is it going to take to resolve it.

COMMUNICATION COMPETENCE COMMITMENT CONTROL


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#21 Posted : 10 July 2003 18:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Having had time to reconsider, do you still feel the same way? If so why?

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#22 Posted : 10 July 2003 23:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Firstly I'd like to say a big THANKYOU to EVERYONE who has responded to this problem and offered some good sound advice.

Secondly I'm going to do some more asking about this weekend about the chairs being banned. Maybe I am missing something here. I take it that HR are aware of this ban (but not sure) and are OK with it. But the legal arguements here do seem to be against them and feel that they are falling foul of their duty of care in regards to the health and safety of their employees.

As far as I know there has been no risk assessment but will ask discretely this weekend. As far as my training is concerned, well I have had none. I have had to make a mental note myself where the fire exists are and have no knowledge of the evacuation procedures.

I have visited the HSE website as suggested, and will go straight for the juggular.!! and call them Monday. Firstly I dont think the agency will offer much help as they don't want to loose their contract. Secondly, the HR department is obviously aware of this, and like I said, either I'm missing something here and they are within their rights to do this or HR are ruled by management.

Thanks again for all your comments and advice, you have all been very helpful and will keep you up to date with what happens.

Polly.



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#23 Posted : 11 July 2003 00:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jack
Well Geoff, I haven't been going over it in my head all day wondering if I said the right thing!

First sign of trouble roll over this is the 'real world' we could use that approach to nearly every request for help; come off it Geoff why would I want to reconsider doesn't seem to sit well with ' - - but how many have mentioned the worker and the benefits to them?' oh he only has to go up the odd chimney and it's only 'til he's big enough to pull the pit wagons you say it's unguarded pull yourself together lad take it or leave it I'm a safety officer it's just not worth the bother risk assessment? we can't afford that nonsense we're just a small business if you think it's gonna damage your health try b&q no one else is complaining. And we're in this profession for what reason?

Stick with it Polly who better to stir things up than someone in your position. If you can't take them on when you're young (I assume) what chance when you're an old bugger in the real world?
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#24 Posted : 11 July 2003 03:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason Gould
Jack i know what your saying and i have seen these companies too many times and wish they all got bubbled. But even YOU have to think for a second (you are giving polly anumition to fire a gun but this can be blank or worse still blow in ya face.

Here are some facts you might want to consider

1. Lathes, pin drills millers and turners, grinding wheels, injection machines threaders and many more types of machine are ergonomically desighed for standing and many companies require this however they can also be adapted too seating with little risk it is really a matter of company choise in some cases. (not seen the machine so wouldnt know for sure)Company can use manufactures instructions as due dilligence.

2. I think i remember some clever chap explaining employment law and a greivence procedure where we as employees are expected to attempt this route before whisle blowing.

3. Yes some companies do deserve the whisle being blown for flagrent disregard for safety.

4. We ALL on this site want polly to get a result but lets try a guid her correctly here because this than cause rifts in the workforce which in itself can lead to unsafe acts (vandalism etc)(bullying & Stress)

5. I recall having a job in a foundry on 12 hour shifts standing next to a pot of 650 degrees of molten aluminium producing castings, apparently we was suppossed to be allowed a 10 min break every hour but this was due to heat not the standing and if i recall a 15 break every 4 hours was the legal lengh allowed without a rest. Anyway our machines were linked to computers for production bonues and trust me i swear some fellas wore colostamy bags as they harly moved. If they took their breaks as allowed they would earn £150 instead of £250 so management CAN get you by the B**LS if they wish. And they use our need for cash to do it.

6. Sometimes when you start variuos jobs pains and swelling are (realisticly) inevitable for the first two weeks where the body will then adapt(palace guards).

7. Some people simply are not suited to a job where'as some are and too think this is not realistic it pure ignorance.

8. You see I cant really see an open breach of any laws here except maybe capabilities and training. I would be very intersted if anyone spots anything on this.

9. I have seen in some past cases where co-workers turn on workers for raising concerns as it can mean lots of xtra duties being put on them. (maintenance staff are worse at this. This does not mean that polly should keep quiet like you say she may have nothing to lose also the company director would probably derserve it as from what i can gather is a terrible safety culture.

polly consider some of the following steps

1. check for support from co-workers.

2. Approach senior managment with your concerns and express the views of the staff in general.

3. Ask for advice from local HSE office first.

4. investigate the true reasons for removing the chairs but do this discrealy at first.

5. Try to put the workfores morale to strenghen your case (does work at some places) (dosnt at others)

6. If you want to go the full hog check your employment rights but i feel you may draw a blank on this one as many do when an agency is involved.

7.It sometimes works when you manipulate an ambitious manager by giving them the idea to raise in their meetings I.E workforce retention improved morale better productivety i.e it may have fallen slightly.

8. If all these methods dont prevail get a sick not of your docter or ask your agency to get relocated then fire whatever you can.
Rest assured that you know you have looked into this as much as you could and at the end of the day you are working for what i call an omega (single brain cell)company.

9. Heres a poem for all you pople out there. i got this of the web. might prick us all up a bit.
I chose to look the other way…

I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn't that I didn't care,
I had the time, and I was there.
But I didn't want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.

I knew he'd done the job before,
If I called it wrong, he might get sore.
The chances didn't seem that bad,
I've done the same, he knew I had.
So I shook my head and walked on by,
He knew the risks as well as I.
He took a chance, I closed an eye,
And with that act I let him die.

I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
Now every time I see his wife,
I'll know I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear,
But it isn't something you need to share.

If you see a risk that others take,
That puts their health or life at stake,
The question asked, or the thing you say,
Could help them live another day.
If you see a risk and walk away,
Then hope you never have to say,
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.

Author: Don Merrell


Final note

I agree with geoff and i aggree with jack and if it wasnt for the various and sometimes conflicting views of both parties many of these discussions would be boring and one sided and run the danger of us safety officers leaving the world of realism and pragmatism which are the two strogest points of any career. Keep it up all

good luck polly in whatever decision you take and consider impersinating a press reporter calling the company to investigate managment bullying and unsafe practices. This one really puts the S**t in the air.


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#25 Posted : 11 July 2003 04:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Urquhart
Dear All,

I have read this discussion with interest and some of it with dismay.

We are I believe in the 21st Century but it seems like Dark Dickensian and Satanic Mill days from some of the respondent contribution.

The following extract might just touch a nerve.

John Brown, A Memoir of Robert Blincoe (1828)
A girl named Mary Richards, who was thought remarkably handsome when she left the
workhouse, and, who was not quite ten years of age, attended a drawing frame,
below which, and about a foot from the floor, was a horizontal shaft, by which
the frames above were turned. It happened one evening, when her apron was caught
by the shaft. In an instant the poor girl was drawn by an irresistible force and dashed on
the floor. She uttered the most heart-rending shrieks! Blincoe ran towards her, an agonized
and helpless beholder of a scene of horror. He saw her whirled round and round with the shaft
- he heard the bones of her arms, legs, thighs, etc. successively snap asunder, crushed,
seemingly, to atoms, as the machinery whirled her round, and drew tighter and tighter her body
within the works, her blood was scattered over the frame and streamed upon the floor, her head
appeared dashed to pieces - at last, her mangled body was jammed in so fast, between the shafts
and the floor, that the water being low and the wheels off the gear, it stopped the main shaft.
When she was extricated, every bone was found broken - her head dreadfully crushed.
She was carried off quite lifeless.

So Polly, as many of the replies have said, you have rights and entitlements and the Health and Safety Law is there for your protection.
Such entiltements evolved out of the sort of conditions and circumstances that the above narrative depicts - of the Dark Satanic Mills and the "Good Old Days"

Has the Company that you are working for got a Safety Policy, have you seen it or been shown it or is there anything that might resemble a Safety Policy notice, poster or booklet displayed anywhere.

You say that you have received NO Training or Instruction - Is that in regard to Safety or to Work task duty and function or both?

Is there a Fire procedure for the premises - Have you been shown it or can you or have you seen any notices or posters displayed around the premises/workplace advising what to do in the event of Fire/Emergency/Need for First Aid etc etc.

Have the HR Dept issued you with any information about the Companies rules/procedures of any sort - e.g. expectations of you - Hours of work;Days of no working e.g. rest days;Holiday entitlement if any;Your time keeping;Reporting if you are absent through sickeness;Period of notice to be given - by the Company, by you;Disciplinary Procedure;etc., etc.,

If they have covered such things is there any mention anywhere in the information about Safety, First Aid, Fire, Emergency, Accident reporting etc., etc.,

What other facilities do you have access to such as toilets, washing facilities, lockers, changing areas, rest rooms for eating meals, a canteen etc. etc.
How clean are such facilities and are they well serviced and provisioned.

Apart from adult employees and temporary Holiday Job personnel such as yourself, does the company take on School leavers for any jobs/roles.
If they do and the conditions and apparent lack of Safety are as you say then you might also like to inform the Local Authority Education Department and there Careers Guidance function if they have one - You could always do this anonimously by letter.

Whilst you could and should prepare a summary of the shortcomings and identify to the company that these are things that you are entitled to:- information, training,and instruction (and also to competent supervision - Do you have that?);

I would suggest as others have, and noting that you have accessed and read the HSE Employees Web page that you talk first to the HSE and give them the information and seek there assistance.
As Peter Gotch says HSE are obligated not to disclose details.

However if you feel confident enough you can address the issues - your list to the company, but as some of the other respondents suggested, do this in a positive way.
Try to demonstrate to the Company that if they address the Welfare in the broadest sense and the Health and Safety issues they will achieve better production to probably a more consistant quality and output level because the personnel will be more comfortable, relaxed, and positive about being at work rather than working to - as you put it "pay the mortgage".

If the Employer adds value for the benefit of his employees then emphasise to the employer that that is likely to be repaid in kind to the benefit of all and the profitability of the business.

Out of interest, is this holiday job whilst you continue with education/studies?

When you become a Captain of industry or Commerce or a World Leader how will you remember these experinces and the shared knowledge from a myriad of souls whose role and interest in life is betterment for there fellow in the world of work in the Global Village and how might you use these experiences in time, to give somehthing back?

As others have requested, please keep us up to date with what happens next and good luck for your future.

Kind regards.
Ken Urquhart

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#26 Posted : 11 July 2003 08:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
Have just scrolled through the responses to this thread and was intrigued to find that risk assessments were not mentioned until about the 14th response. I have only gone through this very quickly but I cannot recall seeing any mention of the responsibilities of the recruitment agency in this scenario - just a thought.
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#27 Posted : 11 July 2003 09:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt
Well Pollybee, you've had a lot of responses and a number of different opinions.

As you've said - you are going to get this company.

Shouldn't your main consideration be your health - you said you suffer agony after two hours of standing. The indication to me from that is that there may be another underlying cause which may need to be investigated. I know a number of employees who do a similar job but do not experience this discomfort.

Whatever you do, including bringing in the HSE, is it worth staying in a temporary job if it is badly affecting your health? And which could take all of the summer to resolve.

If this seems harsh or even Dickensian (and that could be another debate) then so be it, it is your health and how it affects your future that matters.

Geoff
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#28 Posted : 11 July 2003 11:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Hello

The only health and safety related document that I have seen is a poster with 5 names on with thier pictures who are First Aiders. I have had no contact with HR only for my interview. The factory overall is very squeaky clean and clinical with excellent rest area facilities; seating, fridges, microwaves etc. Toilet facilities are very clean too. I was told how not to get my fingers trapped in one part of the machine so took that as my job related training.!!!!

There are no shcool leavers at this plant.

Support from co-workers or discussing this with management is a no go area. As an example, one lady I had coffee with who works in another department, and who's job is moving about on her feet all day, was issued with safety shoes. She took her safety shoes off to go to tea break as her feet were hurting and she said to me, 'i'd better go put my safety shoes back on as i will get told off'. The safety shoes only have to be worn in her immediate area of work apparently and not in the rest rooms. I told her not to worry then but was nevertheless nervous about this. She told me also that when she uses the computer to add data, she is now required to stand and do it as the chairs have also been banned in her area. People at this factory do not question management and if anything, are afraid to.

I'm fit healthy and active in sport. But stand in one spot for a long period of time, (and i now salute those guys at Buckingham Palace) all sorts of aches and pains start to kick in. At the end of the day, just having the option to sit for a while would help. But this option has been taken away for the sake of appearences and that has rattled my cage. I would respect any health or safety issue regarding the chairs and would at least feel that the company has their employees best interests in mind, but I guess I want to see now if I have missed anything or this is purely draconian management making rules and regs as they so please and ruling by fear.

I can walk away at anytime. But as I have the option of a chair at the weekend, I'll hang around for a while and do some digging.!! If chairs were such a safety issue, why let weekend workers use them and not weekday workers? For appearences of course while management are around. !!

I am fortunate that I can walk away at the end of the summer. I've just finished a 3yr law degree and start a lecturing post in September in Criminal Law and Forensics. Unfortunately, I opted out of studying Employment Law and Health and Safety Law.!!

But on the positive side, I have learnt a great deal from all your comments as you are the experts in this area.

Thanks again and will let you know what happens with the HSE. I emailed them last night and hope to be able to call them on Monday.

Kind regards

Polly



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#29 Posted : 11 July 2003 13:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Hi Pollybee

It is peculiar that the area is so squeaky clean and the welfare facilities are so good and yet there seems to be this issue about seating - perhaps there is another, very good reason for removing the seating which you have not been privvy to so far? The two images do not generally fit very well together. Perhaps a bit more digging before jumping in feet first might be a good idea?

Anyway, I wish you well, whatever you decide to do.

Hilary
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#30 Posted : 14 July 2003 12:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Yes I agree with you Hilary, the two just don't add up. Nice facilities for the staff at break times, showers, very clean and tidy, landscaped grounds, everybody in white coats, and generally an all round very nice environment for a factory plant.

I asked around more at the weekend. The same response, 'looks untidy', 'unprofessional', 'people slouching'. I even asked another team leader from a different shift and was given the same reason.

One lady took it all the way to management and HR. In the end she had to get a doctor's certificate to have the use of a chair and to keep her job.

Am I missing something here? I just don't know.

Regards

PB
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#31 Posted : 14 July 2003 13:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason Gould
I dont think your missing anything polly. This goes on all over the place. I worked for a very similar company screwing caps on bottles etc. Lovely and clean very H&S encompassed white coats aswell. But i Found that individual managers had a very aggressive approach similar to the incident when safety shoes are uncomfortable.
The possible reasons may help.

New contacts and visitors expected.

Planning new buisness

Consideration of ergonomic considerations with chairs and machines.

Worried about chronic effects of seated work.

Power struggle on shop floor

Finances tight with chair expence

company losing money

Have been advised by a time & motion consultant (I Hate these blokes)cause more risk at expence of more production. Mind you where would industry be if we always got our way.

Plenty of reasons can have caused this action to be taken but again i think they have acted within safety laws maybe not contract law who knows.

Anyway you look after your feet
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#32 Posted : 14 July 2003 15:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Danny Swygart
Polly,

Why is it always the poor old juggler who gets it?

Danny.
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#33 Posted : 14 July 2003 18:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Hello,

Had a telephone conversation with HSE today.

They were very helpful and explained The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 (S11) and asked how far I would like to take the complaint.

Also they mentioned the Employment Rights Act 1969 where you are protected for 'whistle blowing'.

They have taken all the details which will then be passed on to the complaints department and if actionable they will make enquiries. I was told that they keep you informed of what, if anything, can be done.

My only concern is that the HSE get in touch with the company and say that there has been a complaint about this. I suppose I was hoping that they would do a general visit to the plant and raise the issue of the chairs.
I'm sure you all no this process.

However, I'm now concerned about repurcussions for the people that work there. Could they take away the 15 min break every two hours. ?? (as this is the only privalege they have, if it is one?) I need an employment law book.!!! Any suggestions? O and a Health and Safety law book too.....?

Thanks again for your help.

Kind regards

P

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#34 Posted : 15 July 2003 09:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
As intimated earlier Pollybee they will probably undertake a routine visit and will 'home in' on this at the time so don't worry.
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#35 Posted : 15 July 2003 22:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pollybee
Yes I agree. But I'm no longer the poor old juggler. Or don't want to be!!

In stead I have grown some short brown and black hair, I have my silver spiked collar on and look quite like a rotweiller with red lipstick on. !!!

Even more so after today when the temperature was 85 in our room, no windows, but a few fans to circulate the hot air. And in the corner were 4 nice inviting chairs laughing at me.!!!!

Have to find some humour here somewhere I suppose. At least I'm getting a free sauna....

Air conditioning however will be in in a few months time, by which time, it will be the good old english winter.

P

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#36 Posted : 16 July 2003 09:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
And you fell for the old aircon gag then!

Of course as you are on a temp dcontract through an agency for the summer months you aint going to get the benefit, probably been saying this for years!

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#37 Posted : 16 July 2003 14:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jason Gould
polly ive got to ask.

Do you aswell as I get furious with the agencies for putting you their.

In my experiance they dont give a Danm

One worked in a factory where the agency staff were took on to clean the gunk out of silos we had to wear rubber suits but no gloves etc as was to hot.
Permanent staff laughed and joked cos they were not doing it and our agency rep turned up only to laugh and state " Dont worry lads we will get you somwhere cleaner next week"

My Point confined space, no back up, Latex silos with nitrile at times. He came didnt have a clue laughed and went. We needed the money as you are aware. Looking back i am disgusted with some agencies and there approach and wish more would start getting prosecuted for putting workers their in the first place.

Would love to hear from an agency who can "hand on heart" say they are looking into this seriously
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