Posted By shaun mckeever Hi ya Peter Yes Peter, you are sure to generate some discussion with your statements made above, particularly if there are disabled persons reading it! First of all, refuges were never provided for mobility impaired persons to be left until the FR&S rescues them. The purpose of refuge points is as a 'temporary refuge'. It is understood that mobility impaired persons will slow down the evacuation of the majority of people so the temporary refuge is a place for mobility impaired persons to wait temporarily to allow for the evacuation of the majority, they can then continue their escape with the assistance of others. The building regulations do not encourage or support your statement. If the evacuation of disabled persons is not complete by the time the fire brigade arrives then they will take over the assitance role. Of course this presents the problem of who will provide the assistance and the manual handling problems this creates. During a fire evacuation, if a building has a firefighting lift then it is perfectly acceptable to use this until the fire brigade arrives, they will then commandeer the lift for their purposes. One reason for not using a lift during a fire is that the power supply may be lost due to fire, there are other reasons such as the lift door may open up to the floor on fire. If there is a risk that a bomb may cause a power failure to the lift then it would not be sensible to use the lift. A bomb within the building is likely to cause a loss of power. A bomb external to the building is less likely and therefore I would say that the use of the lift would be acceptable. I hope what I have said is helpful. I have a fire service background and have dealt with several of the bomb incidents in London. I also have a degree in fire engineering but I am not the font of all knowledge. I daresay someone here will correct one or two of my statements. Best regards Shaun

Posted By john ridley Many thanks for the replies guys. I will not make any reference to the moral aspects of this issue as I don't think it is defensible. However, in response to the Shaun's comment regarding Building Regulations I would argue the point as Part B1 refers to means of warning and escape and item xv1 requires only that "management arrangements" are provided to aid means of escape". Part M of schedule 1 to the Building Reg's requires that reasonable provision will be made to allow disabled people to gain access to any storey of an office. The BRE Information Paper IP16/91 also refers to BS5588 Part 8, which requires that disabled persons are provided with a refuge where they "can wait for a short time before receiving assistance to get to a place of safety" not "temporary refuge" as you quote. Whilst I acknowledge that this can be interpreted in various ways, my experience of several fire authorities shows that their initial priority is to save lives and then to combat the fire. Indeed recently one of their standpoints for a pay increase was based on the saving of lives. Ken if you are now saying that their exists a FRS policy statement that they will not rescue disabled people, can you please refer me to that statement? Whether they have considered their legal position under statute e.g. Section 3 HSAW and their civil liability under the tort of negligence for failiing to act remains an outstanding issue. The potential insurance implications of such a policy are extensive. Now to some practicalities involving a security alert. We appoint Evacuation Wardens on a volunteer basis. I know what their response will be to being asked to wait until the staircase is clear before assisting the disabled person from the refuge point, whilst waiting for a bomb to explode. They will resign in their droves and we would struggle to have any wardens at all. The manual handling logistics and training will become unmanageable. Your comment about an evacuation lift is well made and a suggestion I will consider in an upgrade of one passenger lift in our larger buildings. What we do in other smaller locations without any lift remains a problem. Please understand that my organisation is under Chapter 11 bankrupcy protection so there is no resources to install extra controls unless specifically required under statute. Your points are well made guys but the reason I posted this on the forum was to protote discussion and make people aware of the issue. Anyone else wishing to make comment is most welcome. Thanks

Posted By Jack I agree with Shaun and Ken on this; as Ken says you are describing the system which used to be acceptable but is not now. I can't see how the reference to 'requires only that "management arrangements" are provided to aid means of escape' can be interpreted as 'leave it to the fire service'; it means that the employer is responsible for the evacuation from the place of refuge. You say 'my experience of several fire authorities shows that their initial priority is to save lives and then to combat the fire'. Of course it is! But that doesn't mean the employer doesn't have to make (and implement) the management arrangements. The wording 'can wait for a short time before receiving assistance to get to a place of safety' seems to be nicely summed up by Shaun's 'temporary refuge'.

Posted By Ken Taylor I share your concern, John, as one who was around in the days when we could say that we would leave the evacuation of non-ambulant disabled persons to the fire brigade when they arrive. We are now told by the fire authorities by way of their interpretation of current fire legislation that it is our responsibility. Seeing that you want evidence of this, you can have a look at London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority Fire Safety Guidance Note No.26 'Means of Escape for the Disabled' which states 'It is Management's responsibility to ensure that proper procedures are in force for the evacuation of disabled persons. These must be pre-planned and staff must receive instruction in and practice the procedures adopted. The evacuation must be planned so as to be successfully carried out by the building occupiers without dependence on assistance from the fire brigade, whose initial resources are limited'. There are other sources of this information, of course, but I am away from the office at present. Because of this, we are having to install an evacuation lift in a new sports centre that we are planning and will need to do the same for an addition to a residential and nursing care premises to be put out to tnder shortly. You could also try asking your question on the FireNet Forum on http://www.globalcrisisc...er.com/BBSFire/index.php .

Posted By john ridley Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion on the forum and also to those who have contacted me directly. Your replies have been most helpful and OK it looks like I am in the minority here so OK I will go with the flow on this one. For information our business is a real potential terrorist target the reasons for which I am unwilling to disclose. There is still just one real niggling practical problem that no-one seems has addressed yet and it is this. OK! agreed management are responsible for the evacuation of a building but I have just asked three of our volunteer Evacuation Wardens what they would do if I asked them to wait with ambulent people until the staircase was clear and then assist in evacuating them from the building. All three said they wouldn't do it and resign and one actually laughed at me. One suggested that if disabled people wanted better access to the building, then they would have to accept that they would be trapped in the building on the basis of the risk to one person is better than the risk to two. The other question of course is whether we are compyine withour responsibilities under the Management Regualtion and Section 2 of HSAW act by exposing 2 instead of one person. We will have difficulty justifying this on a risk assessment. OK I am focussing on law and maybe I shouldn't nor on moral or financial considerations but waht we have here is a human behaviour and perception issue. Now how do we deal with that?

Posted By Dave Wilson John, OK mate you work in/for a sensitive organisation and the recommendation from Ken is excellent. Have you tried the Met Police Crime Prevention Officers as I worked for a company who had offices across the road from the Canary Wharf Bomb and their advice during this time was invaluable