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Posted By Visseren
As a trained chemist(BSc Organic chemistry) based in the UK, I'd very much like to move into the Health and Safety business. This I'm planning to do by studying for a NEBOSH-qualification, or alternatively the Diploma in Safety Management(a course given by the British Safety Council, which is affiliated with the IIRSM). Which of these two is the better one, i.e. better respected by employers?
Thanks Marc
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Posted By Hazel Harvey
Visseren,
It is a very difficult question you pose as the answer isn't really one or the other. Different employers recognise the validity of each qualification, member companies of BSC may well ask the BSC Diploma, but generally the NEBOSH Diploma is the one that is more widely known. If you are looking for membership of IOSH, however, the NEBOSH Diploma is accredited as meeting the academic requirement for corporate membership wheras the BSC one is not. As a graduate you may like to look beyond either programme to the range of MSc qualifications in OSH now on offer. These are recognised by employers both in the UK and overseas as they offer a well established level of qualification. A list of these is available within the Membership services part of this web-site.
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Posted By Peter Lee
Thorny subject but ultimately its depends on what you want.
The 2 part NEBOSH Diploma is the most respected qualification in Health and Safety but the pass rates are not brilliant especially for Part 2.
Succesful comletion of the NEBOSH Diploma will allow you to be a full member of IOSH (MIOSH).
There are of course many other courses on the market such as the Nottingham Trent Diploma which will also give MIOSH.
NVQ4 is another posibility but you don't often see advertisements asking for it.
Regards.
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Horses for courses mate!
You may find the thread titled "British Safety Council Diploma" instructive.
It is currently languishing on page 11 if you care to take a look.
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Posted By Greg Burgess
Although I agree with most of the comments posted above and do not wish to insult people with other qualifications I have to be honest. From what I have seen employers regard the NEBOSH Diploma part 2 as the 'better' qualification .
Pretty much all employers recognise this qualification, respect it and prefer employees to have it over other qualifications, whether they are right to do this is a different argument. This is not to say that other qualifications will not get you good jobs and help you progress within this field, but my honest feeling is that rightly or wrongly NEBOSH is more widely respected. Before anybody picks me up on this I am a believer in experience being of great importance when looking for jobs, but my answer is purely in relation to the question and I am presuming that 'better' means which will be most successful when applying for jobs.
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Posted By Neil Pearson
I have a chemistry degree too, and find it very helpful in H&S. I took the NEBOSH Diploma.
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Posted By Francis MSc MIOSH RSP
With a degree you may well benefit from doing a Masters (or Post Graduate Diploma), it may even be cheaper
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Posted By Murray S Graham
Marc,
I have the BSC Diploma and found it to be a sound course that is given bad press by advocates of the teachings of the "Dark Side" of H&S. Joking apart, the only thing I would warn you about is that some employers seem to prefer the NEBOSH Diploma. When I left the Armed Forces in January I found it Difficult to even get an interview lay alone a job. It may be that my prospective employers didn't think I had relevent experience outside the Forces but I do beleve that in some cases, having the Diploma from BSC didn't help either (ignorance on their part).
It was once discribed to me that BSC was more hand on, nuts and bolts H&S, whereas NEBOSH was more legislation. Either way mate, you pay your money and takes your choice. Good luck whatever you decide.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Lets not pussy foot about here, I do not have to be PC.
BSC and MIIRSM is NOT the qualification of choice for the vast majority of H&S Professionals or Employers, its a fact!
NEBOSH Dip/MSC/NVQ4 is the 'academic/theory' qualifification to attain.
The SHP (IOSH)magazine is the place to look for a job in the H&S field, safety management magazine does not or has very little job advertisements.
Look in the SHP at job adverts and you will see what prospective employers are asking for, qualifications etc and the BSC dip is not one of them.
so depends on what you want, the previous chap from the Armed forces couldn't get an interview with this whereas when I left the RN/RM with Nebosh Dip got several before I had left.
I am not knocking the BSC Dip it has its place, but if you want to work in H&S employers want something different, before you BSC Dip MIIRSM people get all uppity!
Dont forget about experience allied with the above, you will not belive the amount of NEBOSH Cert holders who apply for jobs which ask for the NEBOSH Dip, RSP etc and then get miffed when they do not get an interview!
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Posted By Jim Walker
Well said Dave.
The longer we skirt around the facts to remain "polite" and not hurt peoples feelings. The longer it will take for H&S professionals (who have worked hard to get their qualifications and experience) to be taken seriously.
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Posted By Nick Higginson
I would agree with Dave here.
We could debate for hours which was the "better" qualification from NEBOSH Diploma, NVQ 4 or Degree (I won't bore you with my opinions.) All have advantages and disadvantages and suit different people in different ways. If I were to advertise a job as a Safety Practitioner, I would accept people who had any of these qualifications as adequately qualified.
I am afraid the same cannot be said of the BSC Diploma - it really does appear to be the poor cousin in this and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
The notion that the BSC Dip is more "nuts and bolts" and NEBOSH is more legislation is utter nonsense. I have heard supporters of IIRSM make the same comparison with IIRSM and IOSH.
Take the NEBOSH or MSc route - you will learn the "nuts and bolts" as well as having a professional qualification you can be proud of.
Kind regards
Nick
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Posted By Murray S Graham
Jim,
I agree with your sentiments completly. However instead of knocking each others chosen method of qualification should we not encourage further development. Maybe BSC,NEBOSH and any other purveyor of H&S should get there act together and come up with a system whereby they compliment each others teachings, instead of us giving it "MY dads bigger than your dad" every so often on this means.
At the end of the day NEBOSH (in my opinion) is the better in depth course, but there are alot of us BSC professionals doing a damn fine job in all areas of the workplace. Your quite right about the H&S personnel being give the just respect, but maybe you should direct your discontentment upwards and not to your H&S comrades on the ground.
Jim, this response was not intended to add fuel to the fire but only to give food for thought for those who read it. Take it easy mate.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Its not all about which one is better, lets get that straight, if you want a job in H&S you look in the SHP and the qualifications asked for are not the BSC or MIIRSM and if you want a 'top' job then FIOSh,RSP etc, this isnt about knocking BSC dip its about reality.
If you are a BSC dip MIIRSM then why are you on the IOSH www and where was your job advertised? thats what I'm getting at, it is very difficult to get a H&S position with just a BSC dip its easier with the NEBOSH,MSc,NVQ etc anyway this is old ground and if you are honest then you will agree.
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Posted By Jason Touraine
You would say that wouldn't you it being the eye wash website. I chose the IIRSM route because it was very clear to me that they demanded of candidates unambiguos answers and only the selection of the correct box would get a mark; if you were not right no marks. Couldn't get by waffling. Precisely what is needed at the coalface clear black and white answers not waffle.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
You really don't get it matey!
The vast majority of employers and industry give more credence to NEBOSH qualifications / NVQ /MSc and this is the qualifications which they demand, so if you are looking for employment in the profession IOSH is the choice and the above qualifications are what is asked for.
Trust me if it was the BSC dip and MIIRSM then I and most other H&S professionls would be going down that route rather than NEBOSH etc, so its not about what qualification is better its what qualification is better to get so I can get a job and thats NOT BSC Dip.
Forget about knowledge based this, exam that multiple choice this!!! If I pass this what are my prospects when going for interview, if you get one.
I for one, and I will be quite honest here, have MIOSH,RSP and have done CPD since day one, why? because it looks good on a CV mate and not MIIRSM, so dont get mad as this is the real deal
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Posted By Jack
Dave, I think he's taking the P. At least I hope so.
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Posted By Nick Higginson
How many times have you been at "the coalface" and had a list of answers to choose from????
I think Dave's right here - this is not about a choice, as there really is no choice.
Personally (as I don't pay subscriptions!) I have membership to IOSH and IIRSM, so I think that makes me impartial. However, if I were to pay for them myself, I would almost certainly drop MIIRSM. NEBOSH qualifications are in no way affiliated to IOSH as Jason tried to imply. In fact, IIRSM will give full membership for NEBOSH Dip 1, whereas IOSH will not.
Nick
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
I think it would probably be advisable to call Visseren back to the discussion now to advise us what he has concluded from the debate.
In the interim all parties should remain quiet and reflect calmly on the fact that we should all be nice to each other and unite together to improve workplace health & safety.
And I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm beating about the bush.
J
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Posted By Zyggy Turek
As somebody who has responsibility for recruiting Safety personnel, I thought that I would try & answer Visseron's specific question.
I try & recruit individuals who have either achieved MIOSH status, or are on the way to doing so.
I have, on several occasions, recruited people with just the Cert., as my instincts have told me that they have other qualities, rather than just paper qualifications.
Once they have been recruited, then I "steer" them down the MIOSH path & wherever possible, following the Nottingham Trent University Diploma route.
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Posted By gary k browning
I have both but I havbe never been asked for BSC only my Nebosh Dip and Iosh Membership. Its not who's best its who will get me a Job.
Do the Nebosh it will get you a job, Bsc will not get you an interview
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Posted By Peter Lee
How do people really feel about the NVQ 4, not many (if any) jobs in the practitioner ask for this qualification yet it gives full membership of IOSH.
I have heard derogatory comments about the NVQ including NVQ = Not Very Qualified.
Please note these are not my comments, I have followed the NEBOSH route myself but are people saying that NEBOSH Dip 1 & 2 are the only qualifications to get a job in Health and safety ?
I agree with Nick you don't get a multiple choice checklist on the shopfloor !
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Disagree mate, its not about how you got MIOSH but that you have it!
Most employers ask for MIOSH by examination and this means exactly that, NEBOSH / NVQ / MSc etc
The initial question asked was which one is better respected by employers and MIOSH is certainly the route if you want to get a more than even chance of a job.
All the H&S Qualifications you can get have a place in our profession and the level of qualification should equal the level of risk involved with a particular employer. Would an SME with low risk environment need an MIOSH,RSP or is this overkill? Coyrse it is but to gain the experience and be 'blooded' then you need to get this somewhere.
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Posted By Peter Lee
Dave,
Not sure if your response was intended for me but I must correct you in that MIOSH by NVQ is by continual assessment not by examination.
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Posted By Jay Joshi
The perception that somehow the NEBOSH Diploma is THE QUALIFICATION and supposedly superior to, for example a Masters Degree in Occupational Health and Safety Management is an indication of the lack of knowledge not only amongst employers (as research has indicated & proven) of the qualifications, but also the Occupational Health and Safety practitoner fraternity. This is because unlike previously, there is no longer a dominant market share by any one provider.
To deride NVQ's is not fair before looking at the evidence etc.
Yes, when the NVQ's were launched in the late eighties/early nineties for the lower levels, especially levels 1 & 2, they had a negative image, but the system has evolved and been refined--as would be the case with any qualification.
It is desirable to have different routes to qualifications. Not everyone mamange essay type examinations. Irrespective of the examination type, none test COMPETENCE. Examinations only test knowledge and to a limited extent application of knowledge under test conditions-It is not a test of competence per se. In that respect, if the assessors and verifiers have done their jobs properly ( just as examiners, moderators etc for exams), then NVQ's are the closest one can get to comparing with competence !
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Are you telling me that my Daughters GCSE's and my other daughters BA(Hons) which are modular and by continuious assessment are not by examination.
NVQ's are by examination just a diffirent type of examination. Anyway its the MIOSH bit which is required and the best route to get this is an individual choice and factors such as Time, cost, family commitment, employers attitude etc are all factors to consider when trying to get this 'membership' of IOSH as this is what you should be trying for.
back to the initial posting, BSC Dip will not get you this, see first reply from Hazel.
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Posted By Peter Lee
Dave from the NVQ website, I hope this clarifies it for you.
How are NVQs achieved?
NVQs are achieved through assessment and training. Assessment will normally be through on-the-job observation and questioning. Candidates have to have evidence to prove they have the competence to meet the NVQ standards. Assessors 'sign-off' units when achieved - they test candidates' underpinning knowledge, understanding and work-based performance to make sure they can demonstrate competence in the workplace.
(Not Examinations)
When did anyone mention your daughters GCSEs ?
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Posted By Nick Higginson
Jay
I don't think anyone here has said that NEBOSH Diploma is THE qualification.
The original posting asked which was better - BSC Diploma or NEBOSH, and it would be a staunch supporter (or employee) indeed who would succesfully argue the case for the former.
No-one, as far as I can tell, has attacked the NVQ route, or said the NEBOSH Diploma is better than an MSc, so are we still "lacking in knowledge"?
What has been said (and is factually correct) is that the majority of employers ask for NEBOSH Diploma, or MIOSH by examination. This may well be due to ill-educated employers (at least compared to yourself), but what do you suggest? We tell them at interview that they are ignorant - that our qualifications are much better that what they are asking for? At least the NVQ certificate will keep the rain off our heads when we are standing in the queue at the job centre.
Regards
Nick
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Posted By Peter Lee
Nick,
Couldnt agree more, I find myself agreeing with you twice in one day (scary)!
Not sure where peoples spurious arguments are coming from though.
At the end of the day people have a choice thats why we live in a democratic society, some people are good at exams, some are not, some people can self fund £5K, some cannot, some can go to college evry week, some cannot, some people think they are better than others some do not.
I say go for what you wanna do, not what others tell you to do.
Good Evening.
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Posted By Jack
Visseren,
You wanted to know which would be the best route for entry as viewed by respective employers. As most have argued, the NEBOSH route is better than the Diploma in Safety Management.
The real answer though, is by whatever means that suits you best in achieving MIOSH.RSP. As Dave said in his inimitable way, it doesn't matter whether that's NEBOSH, MSc, NVQ (all coupled of course with experience)
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
I think actually that you asked the wrong question. The question should not have been between the examinations but which is better to have MIOSH or MIIRSM. The answer I think we would all agree is MIOSH. So, you need to go for the qualification that will give you MIOSH. That qualification will also give you MIIRSM if you want it - I don't have to pay for mine so I have both but were I funding it myself then MIOSH I would keep and MIIRSM I would lose.
Hope this clarifies it.
Hilary
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Posted By Geoff Burt
And just purely for interest you understand, I fund both because I think it is important that you get two points of view.
Before your start Dave, I know you think they are the same.
Geoff
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Is that the impression that I give, its not meant to be. Do I really have an imitable way?
I do not subscribe to MIIRSM as I subscribe to IOSH and the CIEH!
If BSC / IIRSM was the place where all the jobs were adverstised I would be a member, but it isnt so I'm not, simple really.
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Posted By Leslie Trevor Charles Cooper
Considering that DipSM is a mulitple choice question exam, you have to ask yourself is it a qualification worthy of a professional. As an ex-member of IIRSM who resigned my membership after the remarks of the then owner etc. of BSC. This discourse as been run and re-run many times over the years. Simply without prejudice DipSM is not worth the paper its written on in my humble yet experienced view.
FIOSH
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Posted By Geoff Burt
And there we have folks, a prime example of an open mind!
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Posted By Jack
Just an opinion surely Geoff? Nice to see someone get off the fence. Why be open minded about something that is evidently less rigorous and certainly less acceptable to employers.
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Posted By Leslie Trevor Charles Cooper
I am as open mined as one could be but obviously the polemic has not sunk into some so called open minds
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Posted By Geoff Burt
If you can justify/support your statement 'it's not worth the paper it's written on', I'll be happy to retract my comment.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, I didn't understand your second posting.
Geoff
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Posted By Dave Wilson
There will always be people who prefer the BSC Dip to MIOSH for whatever reason, and thats OK, but going back to the initial posting, if you want a job in H&S then the BSC Dip is NOT repeat NOT the qualification to have and if you can't see that then your mind 'is not really open' or just blind to the facts.
If you need proof look in the back of the SHP and Safety Management magazines this month, due out this week I believe.
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Posted By Richard Spencer
If you want to be sure of being considered by industry, other professionals, other societies and society in general as a professional – Then:
Go for an undergraduate or master degree in which ever area of OHS you are desirous of entering as the field is most diverse.
I personally because of my engineering background engaged in biomechanics and ergonomics.
But then I have an interest in systems and deal with HAZOP and FMECA etc.
I also have an interest in teaching so I became an accredited trainer for Standards Australia.
I think the issue is to determine, after research what you want to accomplish in OHS and then set about achieving these ends.
The Degree course will provide a very good academic base for you to accomplish this and provide training at the times when you need to go into intellectual overdrive.
My advice is PLAN, DO, CHECK, ACT –
Richard Spencer FIMarEST FIEAust
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Posted By Dave Wilson
OK I have spent my lunch hour looking at the opportunities for H&S people 60 seconds for Safety Management Mag and the rest in SHP
By my reckoning approx 150 jobs and 4 mention DipSM and all ask for NEBOSH / NVQ / Degree etc
defence counsel rests your honour!
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