Posted By Paul Craythorne
Have I been dreaming for the last 14 years???

I thought I was already working in a recognised profession with standard qualifications.

Must be going daft in my old age!!!

Paul Craythorne

Posted By Sean Fraser
Paula,

You have a legitimate question there - the answer is, companies are allowed to do as they see fit. However, I qualify that answer in that the law requires that the person assigned the position as "competent person" to support management of H*S at work is just that - competent. What is competent though? Well, that's been debated often on this hallowed forum and the answer is never straightforward. Although we believe we are a recognised field with established qualifications we are sadly kidding ourselves - we are only recognised by those who wish to recognise us. And before there is an explosion, I'll provide an example.

I have a disease - the symptoms are recognisable by my friend and family (missing "s" is deliberate!!) but I still need to consult someone who knows about these things. I go to a doctor - now what do I assume? I assume they have done many years of medical training and study to degree level at least, standardised across the country and perhaps even supported by further recognised qualifications at post-graduate level, although the latter is not essential. Maybe even some experience, but that's not essential either. I am assured they are experts, and I automatically place my trust in them. What if I find they were struck off? Or even unqualified altogether? I would be severely disappointed. And that person would be up for probable prosecution.

Now I have a safety problem - I need advice. Who do I see? Any number of people, depending on your company in terms of size, activities, industry, corporate culture, management structure, unionisation, company of origin and reach, any number of things. So if I see our "safety manager", what do I assume? They have spent a number of years training and studying the subject to degree level and perhaps beyond? Coupled with experience? Or just experience? Can we even assume that? No, we can't. But there is no strong demand by industry or government to necessarily change that. And if I find out that person just talks a good game instead, what are the consequences in a legal sense? Not much.

Although I have medical knowledge, I can never presume to be a doctor. No one else will assume that of me either, no matter how knowledgeable I sound. But if I sound knowledgeable about safety, the same doesn't apply - I could just as easily call myself an 'expert' and be believed.

But what do we drum into the workforce? Who is responsible for safety - you are! So what am I then? An expert? A counsellor? An advisor? OR am I the "safety person" who does all the work? And what do ‘I’ contribute to the whole thing?

In the end, what is the top priority of the doctor AND the safety 'person' (for want of a better word)? "First, do no harm . . .". A good philosophy for us all to live by, regardless of qualifications, don't you think?

Light blue touch paper and stand well back . . .

Posted By Geoff Burt
Sean

A number of people in the past on this forum have compared H&S professionals with doctors - I'm not sure this is a valid comparison considering the qualifications needed to get into the medical profession and the time spent studying it.

Many successful H&S practitioners do not have high qualifications - but they do have a lot of good sense and a practical mind.


Geoff

Posted By Neil Pearson
Yet again I didn't actually answer the question. There's no clear answer in any profession. The minimum qualification to be THE safety adviser/officer/manager for an organisation is the NEBOSH Diploma or equivalent (eg NVQ, DipSM etc). That still doesn't really mean competence, because experience helps.

A serious organisation recruiting a adviser/manager looks for corporate MIOSH or equivalent, or preferably Registered Safety Practitioner, because that shows CPD.

That said, I started out with the NEBOSH Certificate and I was then the safety officer for that company. I wouldn't support that now, but I might not have ended up where I am today otherwise. And wouldn't that be a shame? Hmm...

Posted By Jason Gould
Paul Im with you on this one.

I have done the certificate and luckily managed to find the expence for at least the Dip 1.

I have not joined IOSH yet which is my own fault.

I have what I would like to call a variety of experience in different workplaces.
I have now backed this up with the above health and safety qualifications etc.

Would I class myself competent?,

Well others seem to think I should be going for Jobs or setting myself up as a trainer/advisor/manager/person.
They have good jobs and even state themselves that in some circumstances my opinion would be of more benefit than theirs.

Why dont I go for these jobs yet and why not a advisor/consultant etc.

Well what I have learned upto now, is that in my opinion it is better to get the best amount of theory behind me that is on the market and is within my reach. After that piont I will seek more experiance within the field.
I remember after the completion of the certificate course I felt great, It was my first qualification. But then I embarked on the Diploma which was a big eye opener as to the diversity in which is required for the role.

I still feel incomplete untill I get the dip 2 as im sure this will be even more informative.

Maybe a degree later or specialise in a subject i.e. chemicals etc.

What I am saying is exactly what the course providers state.

The certificate covers the Breadth of health and safety in brief.

The Dip 1 covers the depth in brief.

The dip 2 covers the breadth and depth and adds for your own theory behind the reasons.

And finnally experiance gives you the skills to best put to use the above.

IOSH do somthing called CPP (from what I gather)(will have to join soon).

To put this long posting short.

When I had the certificate I may have been useful at the workplace but now feel that I may have made questionable judgments or made assumptions that could make the proffesion look idiotic.

The dip 1 Helped me in a safey job but still their were gaps that I felt I should have known.

Got to agree with Geoff that only time, experiance and the neccessary training probably would have led Geoff to the desision not to do those assessments. Where as I feel If I had the certificate knowledge I may have Wrongly accepted to do them. And this can become dangerous.

One thing at least I do know its a very wide covering role. As long as the safety advisor/manager is aware of his limitations and he is prepared to listen to the workfore and managemnt but still have the guts to stand by his guns when he knows something is being abused. Then accidents will be prevented and cost will be reduced and people will work for longer and have a better life.

(we have a long way to go)

Posted By Neil Pearson
Just one little addition to the argument. Although common sense is important in spotting and dealing with risks, it isn't all about common sense.

Reg3 of MHSWR requires risk assessment "for the purpose of identifying the measures he needs to take to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed upon him by or under the relevant statutory provisions".

In other words, the stated aim of risk assessment is to see what you have to do to comply with the rest of H&S law. You won't achieve this only through common sense. It helps alot, but really you need to know the law and what is currently seen as good practice.

For example, does common sense tell you which dangerous parts of a machine need access prevented? This is an absolute requirement.

This still doesn't prove that a piece of paper means anything, because someone with the Certificate may be quite capable of staying up to date with the law. But it's no accident that the Diploma is quite difficult (at least I found it hard).

It's a fallacy that as long as an advisor knows where to look something up, that's good enough. You can't do a risk assessment or audit really well if you don't carry around alot of the requirements and good practice in your head.

This is not meant as a dig at anyone, I just think there's not enough said about knowledge and being up too date.

Posted By Neil Pearson
Geoff - I wouldn't argue with anything you said there. Just wanted to balance the books in this argument. We need a balance of common sense, knowledge, experience and keeping up to date.

Posted By Karen Todd
Hello Paula,


It might also be interesting to search HSEs database for improvement notices served for breaches of Regulation 7 of HASAWA.


Note in particular improvement notice F090002148 served against Northampton General Hospital NHS Trust on 09/05/2001 for (amongst other things) having insufficient competent persons and insufficient training of competent persons.


Regards,

Karen Todd

Posted By Jason Gould
No matter what qualifications you have.

No matter How many years experiance you have.

There is going to be good safety officers and bad safety officers.

(sorry Geoff this you are going to hate)

I have had the pleasure over the past 18 months to see a phycatrist.
(post tramatic stress due to attack blah blah.)

Due to pressure of the systems in place (so im told) eg I have never seen the same shrink twice.
5 appointments in all.

Im not going to go into great detail but to put it shortley heres the following run down.

1st shrink (you need a therapy group Mr Gould to help come to terms with what has happened)I will arrange this.

2nd shrink (you need a good chat with me)

3rd shrink (you need medication for the depression)

4th shrink (you have come to terms with the event Im gona see you one more time then no more)

5th shrink this morning in fact 18 months later after the event. (you should come back in two months and in the mean time im going to arrange therapy group.


Swear down its a different face each time.
I get 10 min to tell how I feel about waking up in river with Fractured skull, smashed orbital bone, the look of Dr evil i.e. scars. Scar accross tounge as it was hanging off and finally Hypophermia.

No suspect caught- Random attack.

Thinking about it Im going to need a shrink and counsilling about seeing shrinks.

Alas lets hope shrink number 5 has the neccessary paperwork behind him and the experiance to know what to do. He did ask do I feel people are working against me, at that point I was carefull not to laugh in case I was commited.

Dont worry I have thick skin (core essential skill required of any safety officer)

At the end of the day its upto the employer to satisfy himself that he has suitable Health & Safety assistance whever he trust qualifcations or experiance or a combi of both.
As it is upto me to decide whether shrinks are any good.

One thing they have in common is that both proffessions mean well and both flaw for the same reasons.

Posted By Steve Sedgwick
Some mentioned earlier "understanding or knowing ones limitations" and plays a big part in "competence"

Would we appoint some as a Mine Safety Manager who had never worked in a mine? S/He may be a very competent Safety Manager of a chemical company or LA, but certainly not competent in a mine.

Common sense only becomes common to those who understand the environment they are in and there are many different environments.

The HSE are challenging more and more the competence of Company Safety Practioners, we will see more of this debate.

Steve

Posted By Neil Pearson
But qualifications help us do our job, because we learn alot studying for them. We are forced to learn stuff that we might otherwise avoid.

I once put a stop (around 1998 I think) to a consultant/trainer who was providing training to all staff in a company. We was teaching them about the Factories Act, and hadn't even heard of PUWER, even though the second version of it had just come out.

But he commanded alot of respect. People thought he was doing a great job, but how could they know better? Charisma and confidence carry you a long way in a profession in which you may be only person around how knows anything about the subject.

How you do your job is the way you earn respect, but that doesn't mean you are really doing a good job.

I would still prefer to hire a qualified occupational health practitioner for health surveillance, than a GP who talks a good talk. I would still prefer to be operated on by an MD than a first aider.

Posted By Geoff Burt
Of course they do Neil - but an office environment doesn't need an RSP to do a good job. It all depends on the industry and the risk and the qualifications should be variable to suit this - along with open minds.

My point is this frequent comparison with the medical profession is not valid - and nowhere have I said that first aiders compare with surgeons - have I? But if you are going to compare first aiders as certificate holder and doctors with diploma holder, then I rest my case.

Geoff