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Posted By Dot Tadman
I realise that the thread I posted yesterday was maybe not clear, so I will try again.
We have identified a cranage company as a sub-contractor as they would be placing a screen insitu at the site in which we are Principal Contractor.
We have supplied them with tender docs, rules & conditions and sub-contractor H&S questionnaire.
Unfortunately the problem we are having is that the cranage people are not willing to complete our paperwork or supply us with risk assessments/method statements.
How do we deal with this. I have had it said that if we do a risk assessment/method statement with somewhere on the document for them to sign that they have read, agreed with our stated methods etc that this would suffice! Is this okay to do?
Dot
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Posted By Lewis T Roberts
Why don't you just carry on and use them they may be quite good.
How is your insurance status can it afford to take a hammering.
Look … no paperwork to prove competence, inspection schemes, methods of work, planned lifting operations etc. absolutely no work
Lew
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Posted By Dot Tadman
Thanks Lew,
I agree.
And isn't 'Fate' is a wonderful thing!
A cranage company who saw us working two days ago on another job, has just sent in their sales guy who is more than happy to complete all our paperwork and supply us with method statements/risk assessments.
So thanks again. Panic over.
Regards,
Dot
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Posted By peter gotch
Hi Dot
Re your reluctant "contractor" (as defined in CDM)
1. CDM Reg 19(1)(b)requires that they provide you as principal contractor with risk assessment information.
2. Reg 19(1)(c)reuires that they comply with any reasonable directions you give them, eg "Give us a method statement".
Unless you take on control of specialist operations where you as PC are probably less competent than the specialist (hency risk strategy)suggest policy of no risk assessment or method statement, then you don't start work.
You can argue the contractual issues later, but in practice the Hiab company would have difficulty in supporting any claim based on programme or cost, if they are stopped for such a fundamental safety issue.
Regards, Peter
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
As I have read the original question, this may be an issue associated with the way in which the crane is procured.
Under a "hire" agreement (Contractors Plant Association (CPA) conditions)the hirer is responsible for the safe system of work and the HSE would expect their Appointed Person to prepare the Risk Assessment/ Lifting plan required by BS 7121.
Only if the lift was a "contract lift" and the crane company provided the complete package (including the Appointed Person) would you expect crane supplier to prepare the SSoW.
My local HSE office has recently sent a letter to crane hire companies asking them to ensure that they see the contrators SSoW (lifting Risk Assessments) before starting on site.
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Posted By Jeff Manion
It is a strict requirement on you / your clients to appoint a competent person to plan all lifting operations and a supervisor to enure lifts completed in accordance with the plan. Regulation 8 of Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regualtions
HSE have stated above and sent bulletin from HSE Luton reference FMU82\cranes\10227 from HM Principal Inspector.
Not strictly CDM but be aware.
Also considered MHSWR risk assessment no work to be completed without risk assessment.
Jeff Manion MIOSH, RSP, MRSH, MIIRSM
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Posted By Ken Taylor
The question is one of whether you are hiring a crane and operative to carry out your instructions or contracting a company to manage and carry out a job involving the use of a crane. In the first scenario the RAs, safe working method, etc are down to you, whereas in the second it's down to them. However, I would have expected a helpful company to, at least, let you have a copy of their H&S paperwork for using their plant, insurance details, etc in order to assure you that they are a competent company.
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Posted By Neil Pearson
I'm sorry, but I think Lewis' response above is irresponsible and shows complete lack of understanding of the law, of good practice and of potential liabilities.
Controlling contractors does turn into a paper chase sometimes, but that is not the duty. You must do whatever is needed to control the way that contractor operates. Checking policies, risk assessment and method statements helps this process.
Always the remember the Port Ramsgate incident. You must take active steps to verify and control the safety management of contractors, regardless of CDM.
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Posted By Dot Tadman
Thank you to everyone who replied. You have been a great help.
I now have my cranage company sorted. The one who came by on the off chance of work was more than willing to comply with our request for risk assessments/method statements, copy H&S Policy etc and had completed and produced said documentation within 24 hours of request.
Regards
Dot
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