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Posted By Alan B
Following on from the thread by Steve Robinson entitled "16th Edirtion Electrical Certification" I have a question relating to heavy industry/ manufacturing.
We have a manufacturing department which produces material from stone blocks and employs over 350 people. We have our own electricians who are adequate. They do most of the electrical installations themselves including basic work such as wiring in new lights, heaters etc, and some other heavy machinery.
Should the electrician issue a certificate for each installation
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Posted By Alan Barthrope
Hi Alan,
I don't know the full answer to your thread, so I will ignore this one.
I thought I would respond though, just to let you know that I go by the name of
Alan B, as well, although I have just now realised why I could not obtain this "user name".
Hope this does not cause any confussion in future threads, although I have had to use my full name for the "user name".
Regards
Alan B
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Posted By Stephen Ashton
Alan,
In response to your question...
There is no LEGAL obligation to obtain a certificate.
The Electricity at Work Regs '89 require installations to be safe and to be maintained in a safe condition.
The IEEE 'regs' (never actually legislation) - now a British Standard - recommend just one way of complying with the law. The BS has the same status as an Approved Code of Practice - it would be persuasive in court, but it would be possible for you to demonstrate that you had complied with your legal obligations by another method.
This, after all, is what 'goal setting' legislation is supposed to be all about.
If you (/your employer) are (/is) satisfied that your installation is safe, and is maintained safe, because you are employing competent tradesmen (qualfications and experience appropriate to the task)and that they are following appropriately stringent systems of work, and applying up-to-date standards... then you are complying with the legal obligation.
Your comment that the electrical work is being done by 'adequate' people may indicate some concern at current (no pun intended) standards. Your risk assessment will inevitably highlight electricity as one of the more significant hazards, you may wish to seek third party assurance on the standards applied - get an NICEEIC approved inspection and get the certificate!
Hope this helps a little
Steve
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Posted By Paul Cook
Alan,
I agree with steve, BS7671 is not directly law but should be treated as an ACOP at the very least.
Chapter 74, Reg 741-01-01 BS7671:2001 reads:
"Upon completion of the verification of a new installation or changes to an existing installation, an electrical installation completion certificate, based on the model given in appendix 6, shall be provided. Such documentation shall include details of the extent of the installation covered by the certificate, together with a record of the inspection and the results of testing"
741-01-03
"Where minor electrical installation work does not include the provision of a new circuit, a minor electrical installation works certificate, based on the model given in appendix 6, shall be provided for each circuit altered or extended"
741-01-04 states:
"Electrical installation certificates, periodic inspection reports and minor works certificates shall be compiled and signed or otherwise authenticated by a competent person or persons"
Interpret it as you will, but BS 7671 says you need to test and certify everything, in the real world particularly maintance works this seldom happens. If both your electrical maintance work, and new installation work is all carried out in house and neither is tested or certified i reakon you would be on dodgy ground if an accident were to happen, as you would be unable to demonstrate the safety or compliance of any part of the installation.
You said in your posting that your sparks were adequate, the recognised level of competency for testing is C&G 2391, do your guys undertake regular training updates ? BS7671 is always being updated, particularly next year with the introduction of the new colour coding system, how do they stay informed?
Sorry to ramble on, hope some of this helps :-)
Paul
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Posted By AlanB
Thank you for your replies.
I agree with what you are saying, and "adequate" is what we have, so competence is a bit of a problem. We recently had contractors in to carry out inspections on all of our electrical installations and the reports were quiie shocking (no pun intended either). They demonstrated some major problems within the company regarding the sparks we have. We asked the contractors to rectify everything, which they did, and we are to have them return on an annual basis to carrynout similar inspections and tests.
However, the company continues to emply the electricians and very little has been done to increase the competency.
Our electrical procedures are out of date now, and I am in the process of getting them updated, and may well put cetification of all installations as a necessity in the future, to promote ownership of the work being done.
As for the competency of the sparks, that is outside of my power, and is continued to be a matter of low priority within the company by the looks of it.
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Posted By Paul Ward
Chapter 74 of BS7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations 16th edition) state
741-01-01
"Upon completion of the verication of a new installation or changes to an existing installation, an electrical Installation Certificate, based on the model in Appendix 6, shall be provided."
App 6 contains various forms.
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Posted By mike semple
Alan,
I would suggest your electricians be retrained to City and Guilds 2391 (inspection,testing and verification of electrical systems certificate.).Your company/safety dept doesn,t seem to be in the 21st centuary by not knowing of thier requirements for new electrical systems.All new/modified electrical systems have to be tested and readings recorded which would comply with most health and safety regulations from health and safety at work act 1974 and managemant of health and safety at work 1999 ect.
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