Posted By Neal Robertson Here`s a poser for you. One of my employees works 19 hours part time Mon-Fri for us, and 20 hours Mon-Sat for another employer. Can he work another 4 hours voluntarily on a Sunday for the other employer without breaching the day off a week rule under the WTD ? This would be an occasional extra, not a regular additional shift.

Posted By Neal Robertson Thanks Sean, The tricky bit here is that he`ll still only be doing 43 hours in a given week, 5 short of the opt out limit. Can people opt out of rest days? The regs are a bit foggy to say the least...

Posted By Neal Robertson Thanks Sean

Posted By Neal Robertson John, thanks for contribution. Its actually the other employer (NHS) who are wanting the guy to work but are getting worked up over this - as you say if he hadn`t let on about the othe job I`d be none the wiser. What if some of our staff have bar jobs at the weekend ... another can of worms creaking open? I think I`ll go for a lie down.

Posted By John Murgatroyd From the DTI website: What should an employer do about a worker with a second job? If a worker is known to have a second job, an employer should ask the worker to consider signing an opt-out agreement if the total time worked is in excess of 48 hours a week. If a worker does not wish to sign an opt-out in this situation, the worker should consider reducing their hours to comply with the 48-hour limit. More generally, employers may wish to make an enquiry of their workforce about any additional employment. However, if a worker does not tell an employer about other employment and the employer has no reason to suspect that the worker has another job, it is extremely unlikely that the employer would be found not to have complied ............................................ So it seems that if an employer KNOWS the person has a second job, then compliance to the 48 hours is needed. And would seem mandatory.

Posted By John Murgatroyd Yes. I did ask my union about it. As far as they are concerned if the first employer knows about the second employment then the hours count. Personally. I care not. You either do what you're told or you get another job. Believe me, this opt-out letter is just pants. "if you chose to use your right to opt-out of hours in excess of 48, you may not be considered for ANY overtime that may be available" (take verbatim from the letter given with the contract of employment that every new employee gets when joining the company) Instead of getting worked-up thinking about what you cannot do, get some professional advice about what you can do: and get away with. H&S ? Yeah, right.

Posted By Sean Fraser Shane, You stated that because your people work more than 11 hours over their contractual weekly hours on a voluntary basis, they did not require to sign an opt-out agreement. The definition is not whether it is vountary or not, it is to do with the level of control the employee has in regulating their own workload. What you refer to is "unmeasured working time". Examples from the guidelines are: 1. "Worker A is paid by the hour. He occasionally works overtime, for which payment is made. The working time does not fall within the scope of this exception [i.e. is not unmeasured working time] because it is measured." 2. "Worker D's contract also requires a working week of 42 hours, but the volume of work coming to him is greater than someone could reasonably be expected to do in that time. However, he has discretion and a clear choice ovber how much work is done, how his work is done and how to meet his objectives, for example he can prioritise tasks and so, if he choses to, he could limit his working week. Therefore, to the extent that he can limit them, the time worked beyond that required by his contract falls within the scope of this exception [i.e. still working but the hours are not taken into account - note there is no mention of overtime payment!] 3. "Worker E, whose contract requires a working week of 40 hours, works in an environment where collegues habitually do a 12-hour day even though the work does not necessitate such hours. Worker E works the long hours because she is led to believe that her employer considers it unacceptable to work shorter hours. Therefore, the time does not fall within the scope fo this exception because she is required by her employer to work extra time." Be careful - if you have not requested an opt-out and people are routinely working beyond the 48 hour limit, make absolutely sure they are working hours that can be deemed "unmeasured". Otherwise, there is a strong possibility that with the increased awareness of WTD just now, you might be challenged. Even so, all of this is simply detail. Once again we are arguing the detail of law and how to get around it or meet the bare minimum. I can understand the NHS concern - after all, as a huge monolith they are an easy compensation claim target - but it all comes down to how much personal choice we actually have, rather than the situations we are forced into by circumstance and culture. The danger of a knackered and stressed out employee is the crux of the matter - working long hours does not mean greater productive hours. Indeed, it usually reduces productivity over time and could be detrimental to the bottom line, not increase it! We spend a lot of time at work - but how much of it is actually working? Over-work your employees and you will be actively harming your business - humans aren't machines, they wax and wane throughout the day according to their own in-built metabolism, their lifestyles and their philosophy to life. Nor are humans standardised. Striking the right balance is a matter of understanding, compassion and mutually agreed goals. This is something no regulation or rule book can ever reasonably dictate - it has to be individually negotiated. General rules are fine, but there needs to be a flexibility of approach to help fit the work to the people, not the other way round.

Posted By Shane Johnston Sean, Thanks for that. I was under the impression that our employees were covered by the "partly unmeasured working time" as any additional hours are purely voluntary. However following your posting I've checked what you said and ...... bugger .... I've now got to implement an opt-out. Shane.