Posted By Jennifer Jones I haven't got any cases that spring to mind, but I have had similar discussions with middle managers and line managers, supervisors, etc, who argued that they weren't responsible as they weren't senior enough in the organisation etc etc. Just thought if you get this argument, remind them of Section 7 HASAWA, duties of employees to take reasonable care of their own health and safety and that of others who may be affected by their acts or omissions. The omissions bit I've always found useful to point out, as some people do think that the odd turning a blind eye makes them not responsible. I always say to them that a decision to do nothing is still a consious and deliberate decision, particularly when they are well aware that short cuts are being taken. Anyway, good luck, hope this helps.

Posted By Darby Allan Simon Another case - well known to Diploma students, is that of Armour v Skeen. STRATHCLYDE REGIONAL COUNCIL DIRECTOR OF ROADS PROSECUTED A maintenance worker drowned after falling from a bridge into the River Clyde. He was not provided with a safety harness nor a safe system of work. Strathclyde R.C. - Prosecuted under s.2 HSW Act i.e. Failure to provide insofar as is reasonably practicable Safe system of work Instruction, Training, Supervision Mr Armour (Director of Roads) - Prosecuted under s.37 HSW Act Neglected to discharge his personal responsibilities i.e. - Failure to provide department safety policy - Failure to ensure adequate training, instruction and supervision in safe working practices NB: Council’s Policy placed responsibility on Directors/Heads of Departments for preparing departmental policies based on the requirements of the main policy. (Reported as Armour - vs - Skeen [1977]) Regards Darby

Posted By Jennifer Jones Ian, You are of course totally correct, but I (and I am sure many others) have come up against certain managers who will absolutely refuse to do something unless you can clearly show them that they have a legal responsibility somewhere (and then they will try to argue this with you!). For some people I have met, the moral argument and good practise etc just doesn't hold any water with them. For people like this, the only thing you can fall back on is the legal position. I try every approach to get people thinking in terms of good health and safety practise, but somewhere down the line it is important that their legal obligations are pointed out. Some managers (good ones) have been absolutely amazed to discover they are actually responsible legally for the health and safety of those who work for them!

Posted By Mike Miller Cracking point Jennifer! I have actually had a senior manager say to me 'what will happen if I just refused' Or 'I know the risk and I am prepared to pay the fine' You just cannot dilly dally with these people. Stark warnings and reading the likes of previous convictions to them is the only thing that works. As for managers in general, I agree they are shocked to find out that managing health & safety is part of their duties just as much a managing profit and loss sheets. Many have never had any formal health & safety training whatsoever. This is usually why you get a bad reaction because for some reason they feel intimidated by being challenged or questioned and some even take it personal.

Posted By Chris Abbott I advised a senior manager of their responsibilities under HSAWA etc.. The reaction was one of laughter, followed by "don't be silly, that's why we employed you". Situation is this: I advise on a potential hazard (a small ceiling collapsed in an area of reception. Basically the fire/retardant tiles fell out of the framework of this "designer" wall/ceiling.) I investigated the cause and discovered a number of faults relating to maintenance, scheduled repairs, bad management bla bla bla.. I told this "senior manager" that there were a number of problems relating to this - specifically (or to make matters worse) the tiles missed a post-man as they fell.. so that made it a Near Miss too... The response was again to say - "but that's your job! Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions…." What do you do when your advice is not accepted - not just ignored - but not accepted… ?

Posted By stephen j mills Simon, In March 2002, my LA prosecuted a national Cash and Carry business for a Section 2 HSW offence, for failing to ensure the health, safety and welfare of staff, and Reulations 9 and 17 of PUWER, for allowing untrained staff to operate work equipment, and not having clear, visible and identifiable controls and information. At the same time, the local store manager was prosecuted under Section 37, (consent to offence contrary to Reg 9, or attributable to his neglect). The Company was fined £10,000 for Section 2 offence, and £2000 for the Regulations offences. The Manager was fined £2000. So it would appear that Section 37 can be used against any manager of a company, and not just against executives of businesses. E-mail me if you want to talk about it. Regards, Steve

Posted By Alan Dowler-Smith Jack, Many thanks for this - I found the discussion you refer to back in the Old Forum in 1999! At that time no-one seemed to be aware of any prosecutions against councillors or have any firm views as to what their responsibilities might be. As we're 5 years on, I might start another thread on in the forum and see if anything has changed! (By the way, I tried to e-mail this to you direct, but got a delivery failure message at your address) Once again thanks for your help! Alan