Posted By Karen Todd Hi Richard, Unfortunately for some jobs, having a degree is listed as one of the essential criteria, so you won't even get a job interview without one. However, there are many health and safety experts out there who do not have a degree. They have other qualifications and experience. I have a degree in manufacturing engineering (nearly the same as mechanical except for the final year). I really struggled with it as it was very academic and I scraped a third as I had really lost my motivation. However, I was unhappy with my third so I then went back part time and did a PGDip in Manufacturing Management, which I liked a lot better and I could see the practical application of things. Hardly anyone looks at degree classifications now though, so only getting a third doesn't bother me. I did the NEBOSH Gen Cert and stumbled into the safety world, loved that, funded myself and did my Dip 1, got an appetite for more and am now doing my Dip 2. My engineering degree has probably now come in more useful that I am working in safety than in any other job I've had. For example, I had a dynamo eyebolt that broke in service and I was able to put my engineers hat on and see that it was a brittle fracture, examine the directions of loading, calculate the forces on it, see if it had been overloaded, look at the grain structure etc. I was then able to put my safety hat on and ask about training, correct use of eyebolt, risk assessments, safe system of work, etc. Now that I also have the practical experience, I am going to apply to become a chartered engineer in the near future. No real benefit to me in my job, but kudos and a personal ambition for me. My Mum went and did an Open University degree because she needed a degree to go and do various teaching qualifications. It is a bit of a farce, because her degree (geography) is not really relevant to what she wants to teach (key skills numeracy/literacy). However, for her, it is the key that opens the door of opportunity. I guess you have to ask yourself if it will be relevant and help you in the area you work in, and if it will open doors for you, i.e. let you apply for jobs and do other courses. Regards, Karen Todd

Posted By Kelvin George Hi Richard Personally I do have a degree - BSc in Electrical and Electronic Engineering - however I believe that the reason why so many employers request applicants to have degrees are two fold. First because they themselves have degrees and apply the snob rule that they would only employ another graduate. Second because it proves to an employer that the said individual has the intellect, ability and motivation to complete and pass a 3 - 5 year academic course. Third if the degree is vocational then you will gain vast amounts of CORRECT knowledge within that field prior to being expected to put it into practise. Remember however having a degree does not stop you from getting made redundant or garuanteeing you will earn a fortune. It will "probably" open doors that would have been shut and put you further up the ladder when you start. One thing you will might experience is resentment from personnel who are not able to climb the ladder because they do not possess a degree. Sad but occasionally true. At the end of the day any education has got to be beneficial to the individual and masses and therefore the further you can progress in education has got to be a plus. What ever you decide is right for you - and in my humble opinion that is what is most important - I wish you all the best. Cheers Kelvin

Posted By Raymond Rapp Richard, An interesting observation but the question would probably have been better put...'is it important to get a degree?' The degree status is becoming a requisite for most good jobs and for furthering ones career. As already mentioned there is something of the 'old boys network' associated with a degree status. Ironically, many who have achieved a good position in say health and safety have done it without a formal degree education. So experience still counts for a lot. I have just completed a MSc in H&S management and currently waiting for the results from my dissertation. I am short on full-time experience and you can't get a degree in experience. Therefore the degree was my best option, but it is not necessarily the panacea that some might suggest. Does help in teaching you how to spell though ! Ray

Posted By Alec Wood A degree proves you can learn to a certain standard, and will open some doors for you. Some jobs are graduates only, I have never seen one "non-graduates only" Alec "no degree" Wood Samsung Electronics

Posted By Stuart Nagle It is true that experience, and even better longer and more diverse experience, is a great assistance in applying for jobs. However, the main criteria I believe is meeting the employers job specification in respect of qualifications asked for. If a person with much experience and no qualifications applies for post where the employers specification, for example, is a 1st degree, do you think they will get to the interview stage - personally I doubt it very much, unless there is a shortfall in applicants... Unfortunately, CV's - which everyone states should be limited to two pages, offer little space for a vast amount of expereince, personal attributes and achievements ect to be conveyed, when perhaps the degree qualified person will, after their personal details, list a string of qualifications deemed desirable by the employer (not only for the job, but perhaps also demonstrating that complex learning is a trait of the person) and will most likely be invited for interview in preference to the experienced person, particularly if the CV is limited in size and, it is difficult to convey the experience held, which may often be the case. Degrees, as Mr Burt says, come in all shapes and sizes and subjects. Many, I too agree are vague in the value they offer - sociology may be one example that has been brought into question over past years, no doubt there are others too. There are also those, for example civil engineering, as the subject was mentioned above, that have fewer persons applying than ever before, mainly due to the fact that the academic standards are very high (particularly maths and science) which are the all time 'tripping points' for most students on any course - they are very hard work. Others too present a challenge and most university courses that contain a mixture of science, law, maths or physics, and to some degree the essence of sociology (such as human behavioural science) as do the major degrees (both 1st and higher) in occupational health and safety practice, are not easy options as would appear to have been suggested. The facts are that: 1) Employers do recognise that more young persons are going to university than ever before, and so, seek out those that have degrees rather than those that do not, for positions which require technical prowess or offer the opportunity for the employer to attain a broad knowledge base on which to build, and 2) Graduate salaries are. for the most part, less than those of 'experienced and qualified' personnel, so there is an opportunity for employers to gain where experience can be obtained in-house rather than employ someone who expects a higher salary from day 1. The question of whether a degree is warranted or not is an academic subject, if you'll forgive the pun, as it is obvious to most people that a broad and deep understanding of a subject is a much firmer base on which to build experience than that which is experience based alone (i.e. knowing why something happens is often of more use than simply knowing that if you do 'A' the result is 'Y')... Hence a degree couple with the experience of knowing the 'A' - 'Y' outcome is more valuable! Also, in respect of the field of occupational health and safety practice, it is worth noting that there has been, and continues to be, a considerable change in the qualifications with which persons are applying for full corporate membership of IOSH. Over the last 2 to 3 years the highest proportion of persons applying for and obtaining MIOSH (corporate membership), are graduates with either 1st or higher degrees - specifically 54% of all MIOSH awarded - and there has, as one would expect by this increase in degree qualified membership, been a marked drop in those applying for membership by NEBOSH Diploma. the other route available, namely NVQ4, as a matter of interest it is also worthy of note in that it is now the favoured choice of the experienced person over NEBOSH, which is also reflected in statistics issued by IOSH, NEBOSH now accounting for the minority of MIOSH applications. If this is anything to go by, and the trend continues at its current rate, within 10 years it may be that as much as 75% to 80% of all new MIOSH applications will be via 1st or higher degrees, and the majority of others by NVQ with a small persentage still being via NEBOSH. This I think says a number of things: 1) Those aspiring to MIOSH see the way forward (as a chartered body) as attaining a degree to ensure they aquire the proposed academic qualifications necessary 2) Those in membership - as many who are are studying for or have already attained degrees or higher degrees see there is added value in obtaining higher learning 3) many recognise that NEBOSH may, at some time in the future, not offer the level of qualification required, and/or is too expensive to the length of the course when compared to a 1st or higher degree and/or on a value for money basis, have selected a 1st or higher degree in preference to NEBOSH as it represents a generally accepted higher standard of qualification. So are degrees necessary. Well it would appear the people have spoken, and certainly as far as the corporate membership of IOSH and those aspiring to become MIOSH are concerned, they obviouisly consider it is necessary and, when one considers the alternative academic course available, finacially astute. the other option, NVQ4, will no doubt in the future be usurped by a practitioner NVQ5 (degree level according to the Quality and Curriculum Authority - QRA), but even so, NVQ4 has currently surpassed NEBOSH as the preferred route for those currently in-post and with the relevant experience to undertake and successfully forfil the various unit requirements. It is also worthy of note that having looked recently at the Institution of Civil Engineers web site (membership), that ICE considers NVQ at levels 4 and 5 to be Initial Professional Development (IPD) rather than a stand alone qualification, per se, and requires its mature candidates or those with academic qualifications not acceptable to the ICE, to undertake and successfully complete these 'courses' in addition to passing a Chartered Professional review, in order to qualify for chartered membership of ICE! I would wrap this up (thank god I here you say...) by stating that now, more than ever, the opportunities are there to study at a higher level, and anyone who has the opportunity and does not take it, to my mind, would have to be a little short sighted. I know all the arguments about cost, time, work and all that jazz... but lets face it, most university degrees are available to suit YOUR MODE OF STUDY, part-time, full-time, sandwich, distance learning... yes they all take time and a lot of effort, but has anything not if it is worth having? Lets face it, what it boils down to is this...if you were offered two academic choices at very similar cost - would you limit your opportunities by accepting the quick-fix option or take the route that in the slightly longer term will offer greater opportunities - and has been much mentioned in generally discussing degrees, the opportunity to increase your earnings potential life-long by over 40%? Whilst this choice may be different for a percentage of more mature IOSH applicants (although those I see enrolled on an MSc make me think this may not be so!), who are obviously taking an NVQ4 in preference to other routesl... For the younger person, surely a degree must be the first choice!! I think for many fear of/and the unknown may have a lot to do with it, but take my advice, fear not, seize the opportunity, and put it to good use.... Stuart

Posted By Peter Lee Just to chip in, I wonder how many of you would like to be treated by a doctor who didnt have a degree but had buckets full of life experiences. PS its not nettiquette to put letters after your name on a chat forum.

Posted By Chris Abbott Hi Richard, I don't have a degree because when I finished my HND in Computer Studies, I was sick of school, so I went out and got a job. I read somewhere here that a Degree will help your spelling - well I doubt that would work in my case, given that my brain just won't compensate me in that respect (dyslexia...). I'm 30 in July and have over 10 years working experience - coupled with my other qualifications that does give me an advantage over some graduates. I applied to be an HSE Inspector once, because that's a job I would really like to do. I was told that I needed a degree (and this was the worst bit) It didn't matter what that degree was in, provided I had one. ??? What's that all about - I think that really belittles the degree holders personally, and it really put me off doing one - I'm sure that the degree side is only (as people have said) to prove you are able to learn, but I personally favour competency based training (if you want to specialise then that's a different thing entirely, it might be more practical to get an academic qualification in that circumstance.) I'll end by saying that I'm happy now that I have experience. I don't regret not having done the degree, and I don't think I've missed out on that much; but as someone else here said - it's your choice (the most important choice) and I hope, whatever you choose, you get what you want out of life! Best, Chris

Posted By Ron Young Whats changed in the H&S world in recent years that has some safety professionals, or those aspiring to be one, to no longer regard the NEBOSH Diploma (or equivalent) plus CPD as the "standard" for practising H&S? What else does a H&S Degree teach you that you don't learn from the Diploma + CPD? Why should associated degrees, to quote Jack, OHS Systems Management, Ergonomics, Biomechanics, Hygiene, or an allied science make you an OHS professional?

Posted By Richard Spencer Well well, So good to see that honour has been satisfied. A little over the top don’t you think? Give me brake!! The thread asked for honest opinion and it would have been enlightening for the non graduate position to be aired for all to appreciate. This has been express in the early contributions to this thread but I fear Geoff and Jack have ‘hijacked’ the intent, which is a real shame. A little less bile guys and a bit more objectively would raise the debate, don’t you think. Jack I would appreciate if you refrained in future from paraphrasing me out of context. You have no need to impress me and others who have contributed to this thread. After all the brilliance of your argument is legend. Secondly I would also appreciate you not signing the out of context statements with my name. I find this odious and unprofessional in the extreme. If you wish to contribute to this thread then please feel free but please avoid the temptation of attempting to emulate Sherlock Holmes it’s so unbecoming. Tut Tut.

Posted By james mackie Richard In health and safety it is important to be able to understand the regulations with regard to your particular workplace and have the personal skills to implement them.You will need knowledge, training and experience, then your employer can decide whether you are competent or not to carry out your duties in your contract of employment. This of course is the same for any type of employment whether you are a rocket scientist or a labourer. You should be able to decide from this whether you personally require a degree or not. regards Jim Mackie

Posted By Stuart Nagle the scores so far: 1) Those in favour of degrees: a little over 52% 2) Those against degrees: a little over 4% 3) Those showing no preference: a little over 42% (Excludes the nonsense and the 'bile') Stuart

Posted By Richard Spencer If the cap fits wear it: It would be a little more interesting if contributions to this thread were positive and meaningful. There is no gain in vilifying my position and what I have said now or in the past. I always reserve the right to express the, for argument for graduates. For the benefit of certain, against, degree protagonists: The HYPOTHETICAL question simply asked and therefore assumes the persona of someone in a dilemma, not knowing if a degree would be an advantage or not. The expectancy was for contributors to provide insight into their particular view. It seems for the benefit of those it concerns I need to explain the contextual nature of the question - Logical argument for, or not acquiring a degree. Bilious commentary and rhetoric don’t demonstrate competency in communicating the argument. It only serves to demonstrate an unsubstantiated contrary view. It does not validate why and the reasoning for the conclusion. In a rush to consider one’s own predicament the comments made that attack me have not considered the fact, there maybe members faced with a similar dilemma, and would benefit from seeing both sides of the argument. This thread was one of the means by which this argument could be aired. I believe each time certain contributors vilify the, for argument those contemplating or holding a degree are tacitly supported and the principle of the, for case is strengthened. The entire quest for knowledge for most Homo Sapiens is a central component to the human psyche. If you do have a point of view let’s, hear it? Richard

Posted By Stuart Nagle I agree, Raymond. Lets cut out the personal stuff and see if there's a consensus for, against or neither.... comments like 'I still don’t understand why you asked our advice on this when most of your responses to threads have made it abundantly clear you already have fairly clear views' are missing the point of the question entirely... which was quite simple... why do you consider it important to get a degree - or don't you consider it important, or do think it unecessary and if so why? The fact that the person asking the question has or has not is immaterial, the question seeks simply the views of others... If you have view state it...

Posted By jom In contemporary times, seeking qualification for job getting puposes has always been there. Perhaps not many people go to college purely for gaining knowledge, now or ever. However, there doesn't seem to much of an attitude that a course is worth doing because "I will gain useful knowledge - stuff I can use to do a better job, or even gain a higher paid job as a result of my improved knowledge."

Posted By Hilary Charlton I believe that the main reason for getting a degree (or degree equivalent - guys) is confidence. Yes, a degree (or equivalent - guys) opens doors that might otherwise have been closed, but your approach to the interview, your self confidence and outlook will be the deciding factor on whether you get the job or not. This confidence comes from knowing you are suitably qualified for the post, that even if this job goes by the wayside there will be others - this attitude gives positive vibes to a would-be employer. Basically, doors will open and the confidence you gain from knowing your own personal worth will ensure that these doors stay open for you. Go for it if you can and good luck. Hilary