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Posted By Paul Hill
A sixteen year who works in construction wan't to become self-employed. He is also engaged on a government funded training progamme. What would the legal and moral stand point be for this situation?
I would really appreciate your comments.
Many thanks, Paul
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Posted By Eric Burt
Paul
This sounds an odd one in view of your comment that the person is on a "training" programme. This would mean that they must be trained (by someone) as they were not yet competent in their occupation.
It must be remembered that young people on training programmes etc are deemed to be "employees" for the purposes of the Health and Safety at Work Act under the Health and Safety (Training for Employment) Regulations 1990.
Call me old Mr Suspicious but I would ask the question "Why does the 16 year old want to be self-employed?"
Eric
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Eric asked: "Why does the 16 year old want to be self-employed?"
Reading between the lines, would that be because the erstwhile employer is trying to avoid paying some sort of insurance premium during an arranged placement?
If so, I would strongly advise against placing with that company.
It is not to the advantage of the trainee if an injury occurs.
It also leaves the placement provider woefully exposed in the event of an incident or prosecution occurring.
Finally it demonstates a prima facie denial of responsibility for h&s matters by the employer.
Based on the above, I'll leave you to decide the morality of the situation.
Of course, there is always the possibility that I have misread the original situation, if so then I apologise and request clarification.
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Posted By Paul Hill
Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.
I must confess to being very suspicious about this situation as well. I don't understand as why the young person would want to take this line. I will be following this with interest because when this question was put to me earlier today the alarm bells started to ring.
I am lead to believe that he is currently employed and is on a NVQ training course but know wants to become self-employed.
Should you have any more thoughts please e-mail me at phill44162@aol.com
Thanks again.
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Posted By Anthony Slinger
If the lad is on a government funded course, then there is a contractual obligation for the training providor to ensure that the learner has a safe working environment. The main issue is competent supervision, and at 16 years of age I would imagine that he needs maximum supervision. I am guessing that the lad works for a "one man band" employer doing domestic work because this sometime happens with some learners I deal with at the college I work for. Normally it is a insurance issue. I would suggest you persuade the employer to get insurance cover (if you are in situation i think you are in)or I would go with Eric and Jonathans advice (poles and barges)I always try the first approach, because once the learner is on the program, you can gently bring the employer on board with H&S and everybody wins.
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Posted By Linda Crossland-Clarke
Just to add another dimention to this discussion. There is a government funded training scheme on New Deal which is for Self Employement, persons on this course are not actually on a "training course" receiving training, they receive guidence on how to be legally self employed. Guidence more focus' on things like, book keeping, tax H&S obligations etc. He may be on this?? The advantage of this scheme is that the person is allowed to still draw benefits for a fixed period, whilst they trial self-employement. If they can't make a go of it, then they can return to their unemployed status, without having to re-make their claim.
Strangely enough I've known a few H&S Consultants start out this way!
Linda
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Posted By Mike Miller
Forgive my ignorance but to be self employed you have to be able to offer a service. What sort of service could a sixteen year old youth offer a construction comany/contractor.site ?????????????
Have I missed the plot?
Mike
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Posted By Kelvin George
Strange isn't it!
At 16 you can not vote, you can not drink alcohol in pubs, and I think am correct in saying that you can not even get married - if you can then you shouldn't. However it appears you can become a self employed person with all the associated responsibilities.
It's a brave new world and I'm suddenly feeling very old.
I'll be generous though, he is dedicated individual who although not an academic genius understands all his responsibilities of income tax, national contributions and not least H&S and realises that he can still do all that and make a small fortune as well. Well if that is the case then all the luck in the world to him. What is his surname? Branson!
Nah don't believe it - to good to be true - and as what normally happens to me is that if it seems to good to be true then it probably is. In that case then somebody else is putting ideas into this young lad's head because they don't want to accept the responsibility of being his employer - the dirty low down scoundrels.
cheers Kelvin
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
Could it be that other workers on site have told him of the "so called" benefits of having Construction Industry Scheme "Self Employed" tax status?
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Posted By james mackie
Dear all,
for the uninformed, most people on construction sites are self employed. Contractors supply the management team and hire tradesmen to complete the task. They move round the country from job to job.
The 16 year old can come on a construction site but he must first have a risk assessment by his employer (how does he do this if he is self employed) and a copy must be sent to parents/guardian prior to him /her coming on site.
regards
jim
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Posted By Eric Burt
At this age there may be some occupations which lend themselves to some type of enterprise - I have seen programmes about young people who are whiz-kids at computers and design games etc. I would fully support this type of self-employment - great.
But on a construction site - it just sounds wrong. If this lad has an accident you can bet your bottom Euro that all and sundry will be covering their derrieres and claiming that they were not responsible for his supervision as he was "self-employed".
Maybe the HSE should give this a dose of looking at....
Eric
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Posted By Pollington
To sum it up
A 16 year old self-employed construction worker would be useless on a site
1. His employer would have to do specific "young persons" risk assessment... what employer if he's not employed.. would he do these himself.. - obviously not - He’s NOT COMPETNET
2. He needs constant supervision.. how does a self-employed 16 year old achieve that short of having a card board cut out of a competent person besides him.
Its in his own interest to stick with his employer, get himself through his training.. which his employer would pay for then at the grand age of 18 go off and become self employed if that is what he still wishes.
Being employed at the age of 16 getting paid to do a course is great for a lad of his age... not only does the employer pay him whilst he is at college.. but he also gets holidays.... Unless he is very rich I wouldn’t advise him to go it alone. - It’d be the end of his career before he started.
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
Times do change. I was on construction sites at 15, having left school and gone to work when 15 was the minimum school leaving age.
I was then working as a labourer on a sewer gang, working in, maintaining and constructing sewers (some deep) and maintaining sewage pumping stations, some with spanners bigger than me and twice as heavy!!
by the age of 16 I was an experienced hand. although an employee, not self employed, I worked with a gang of three others. everything was done by hand...
On the safety front: we were trained - half day with local water authority, and used 'Spriralarms' to monitor the atmosphere in sewers etc, a bit like a miners lamp that burned a mixture of parafin and glycerin (known as glycerol), and on the outside of the lamp was also a small cage for a piece wetted of lead acetate paper. No fancy electronic devices - just one step ahead of the canary!!
No jetting machines, just hand operated winches and steel wire 'drag lines'. No doubt all of you will be thinking, Wow this guy must be really old.... not really I'm talking about 1972 only 32 years ago... Yes all right, so I'm 47 now.... but it goes to show how things have changed... Of course in 1972 the HSAW Act 74 was still in the mind of Robens and his committee, but I survived, and I think on the whole we operated a lot safer then than many contractors doing similar work I see today.... food for thought
and not a lot to do with a self employed 16 year old I know, but sometimes I get nostalgic....
Stuart
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Posted By Laurie
Stuart
How right you are!
Although a bit older than you, I still look back to the days when PPE was a set of overalls and a tin of what was then Rozalex, now known as barrier cream, plus gloves if you were handling something really nasty like nitric acid!
Laurie
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