Posted By Tony Birchall
There's an interesting article in this months SHP magazine, by Martin Stear, regarding Regulation 4 of CAWR 2002.
I would be interested to hear how other people have tackled, or intend to tackle, Regulation 4's legal duty, without actually undertaking a survey of their premises.
The message from Martin (of which I am fully conversant of) is "asbestos surveys are not mandatory, and the duty is to manage, not to survey. If you have an asbestos management plan that protects your employees and others - it works".
The main starting point may, however, be to undertake a survey, sample and analyse for the type of asbestos, condition etc.. Whether you choose to do this yourself, or use a surveyor, I still think this is the only practical way to start a management plan?

Posted By Geoff Burt
I think what he is saying is that if your premises are of a size and build that you can be confident you know where the asbestos is - then you don't need a survey.

Not sure I completely agree with that one but can see his point.

I do agree that a Cat 1 survey is a complete waste of time (but not for the surveying company of course!).

Posted By Geoff Burt

Me: Class/Cat 1 type survey - a complete waste of time.

Response: A poor survey is better than no survey.

Really?

Posted By David J Jones
Geoff and Jeff,

Food for thought indeed.

The ACOP refers to a "duty to manage the risk from asbestos in non-domestic premises..." which, surely, equates to "Control".

A sound management strategy will in almost all cases include measures for control of whatever the subject may be. Further, in order to exercise control, that requiring to be controlled has to be known, hence a type/class 1 survey. If this survey reveals what is suspected to be ACM, then a competent person can be engaged to undertake analysis to confirm or otherwise.

Until you know for certain that you have no ACM's, as the ACOP states in the first two sub paras of para 3 to the Introduction - "take reasonable steps to find materials likely to contain asbestos and to check their condition;" and "presume that materials contain asbestos unless there is strong evidence to suppose they do not;".

Allow me to pose a question - if you don't know what you've got, how can you control it?


David

Posted By Adrian Watson
Yes "Don't forget the reasoning behind CAWR 2002 is to reduce the increasing death rate from asbestos related diseases".However this reflects the situation around 1970.

At that time it was normal practice to cut with a band saw 6ft sheets of asbestos into the right size of material.

The duty is to manage asbestos, is far more than identifying and managing the "known" asbestos in buildings.

many regards Adrian Watson

Posted By Tony Birchall
I thought I would take the opportunity, to attach below, a copy of a personal reply that I had from Martin.

I hope its of interest to all.


"I'm not anti surveys, in fact I'm on the management committee of the ABICS certification scheme. I do think surveys are important but when done competently and used correctly. The emphasis of the article was about how you manage asbestos and the role of the survey. Firstly, as ex-HSE and co-author of HSG227 I can guarantee that Regulation 4 does not mean you need to do a survey. It does require you to assess whether you have ACMs and inspect your premises. But these inspections are about making sure you have no issues (e.g. damaged boilerhouse lagging) and does not mean that surveys are mandatory. HSE were (and I'm sure still are) concerned that the focus was too heavily on surveying. They don't even expect 'inspections' by the 21 May.

The point is that many organisations have 100s of premises (some have 1000s). Management of ACMs means to ensure that all work on ACMs is controlled. This is achieved by putting controls in place that means the tradesman/architect/planner etc. finds out what the material is before work starts. They stop and think and ensure that every job, no matter how small, considers the presence of asbestos. We are involved with incidents at the moment where the presence of asbestos was known but there were no controls to prevent disturbance. This means checking the register or taking a sample for analysis. You can control every job by taking a sample each time but for most organisations this is not ideal and can only be a short term fix. But develop your controls NOW and build up you knowledge in the long term. With all the controls in place, nobody is exposed. Then plan surveys over the coming months and years. As you build up your knowledge you can use this as part of your already established controls. Tradesmen are controlled NOW and in the future.

But the work is only controlled if there are systems in place and that everyone is trained and know their roles and responsibilities. If they don't, they work may go ahead and asbestos is disturbed, even if a survey exists. So you can't control without some kind of system or procedure but you can control without a survey.

I advise my clients to do surveys but to plan them. What they need to do know is work out how they are going to stop uncontrolled work on ACMs. In the longer term surveys can be planned, prioritising them. Some buildings may not need surveying for a long time (e.g. a redundant warehouse). If you have many premises then carry out quick walk through inspections to see if you have any major issues (i.e. damaged materials that are not obviously asbestos free).

It is inconceivable that organisations believe that by completing a survey they are compliant. HSE wants to know how ACMs are being managed now not that you have just carried out a survey or you have them planned. The bottom line is that its not about knowing where they are but controlled any work that disturbs buildind materials.

These are my views but they are also those of Bill MacDonald and other ex-HSE colleagues. I worked for HSE for 11 years and from the concept of Reg 4 to its delivery.

Please feel free to copy this to the chat forum if you wish.

Thanks for listening

Martin"

Posted By Stuart Nagle
Firstly, as someone who is qualified to undertake asbestos surveys, and having undertaken a number (internally to the company) over the last 18 months, I would state that if you don't know where or what it is (i.e. without having a competent survey) how can you manage it to the standards required? Irrespective if whether the duty is to manage and not to survey, if you don't really know what your dealing with your not in a position make a competent assessment and hence the management plan may be overated, over complex and watse valuable resources.

A type 1 survey (presumtive) is all well and good, but in the average factory complex, there are a lot of materials that may or may not be ACM's. to attempt to 'manage' all of these materials on a day to day basis on the level of a presumtive survey is not cost effective and it is not good practice. How many other potentially life threatening substances do you manage by guesswork?

Secondly, if a survey is of use, and in most cases it is, how can this be achieved. Two routes exist, namely one pays for a qualified asbestos surveyor to come in and do a type 2 survey, or you do the asbestos surveyors course yourself, complete the suveys (3 surveys required), submit them for scrutiny (to BOHS), and if successful get the certification as a qualified asbestos surveyor - the DIY route for companies that also affords you additional and useful qualification (and perhaps assists with your CPD etc), at a lesser cost perhaps than employing an asbestos surveyor?

Lastly, after whatever route is taken, as above, you have a comprehensive asbestos survey that will enable you to identify what is and what is not an ACM and enables a competent asbestos management plan to be put into place where you know, 'so far as is reasonably parcticable' that you are not exposing persons to risk from exposure to an ACM (i.e. you are managing it and have a written system for doing so - your asbestos management plan) and thereby meeting the requirements of the CAW Regulations, and in particular reg 4.

It is not rocket science, and a good asbestos management plan can be achieved by diligent assessment and employing the CAW Regs/ACoP and MHDS 100 to ensure a thorough job is done. This will inspire confidence in your contractors (maintenance works on your site) and employees (Consultation don't forget) as well as your boss, that you are doing a professional job and utilising available resources in the best manner.

Tickling around the periferies in asbestos management and perhaps failing in the long term may have consequences...

Stuart

Posted By Robert Dunlop
Isn't there also a duty to educate as well?
I was informed yesterday (by a third party) that a fire alarm engineer tasked with rectifying a fault on a ceiling mounted detector refused to carry out the work because he thought that the artexed ceiling contained asbestos!!

Bob

Posted By Stuart Nagle
I agree with Robert on the language and detail that can be presented in 'survey' reports, but it is up to the client at the time of the desk-top survey and walk-through to get his brief across to the surveyor on what exactly he wants in the respect of presentation of information in the survey document.

Apart from the usual bumph, analysis and algorythm etc, there should be detailed plans marked up of sampling points - or if plans are not available the surveyor should supply drawings in the survey report etc.

In addition, and whilst samples taken that do not contain ACM can be ommitted from the algorythm etc, details of findings should be fully explained and areas surveyed - or not as the case maybe (and the reasons why not) fully given in the survey report.

If your not getting what you want its usually for three reasons:

1) either the surveyor has not provided a suitable and sufficient report (see MHDS 100) or

2) your brief was not comprehensive enough and the surveyor has had to guess what it is you want, and not guessed correctly!!

3) no matter what is presented some clients are never happy if they have to pay for it!!

Stuart