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#1 Posted : 27 May 2004 09:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kelvin George Hi This morning on Breakfast News they stated that there are concerns that obesity is going to kill more people than smoking. OK I accept that journalists will sensationalise and collect their comments from eminent scientists who support the argument that they wish to put across, and personally generally take the view that most of what they say is probably not true. However if it is true then the implication would be that many obese people will possibly have more time off work because of ill health and are unlikely to have a complete working life because of their physical fitness. Don't everyone start having ago about me being prejudice against obese people because I probably clinically am myself. If employers are responsible for the health, safety and welfare of their employees and of course the employees have to assist the employer in his/her statutory duty then what, if any, course of action should an employer take in the health of an obese person, and I don't mean give them work where they can sit down all day, I mean help tackle the root cause of their problem ie being fat. For example when I went to school in the 60's and 70's the school would provide nutritionally balance diet for school dinners, I believe that was to ensure that children had at least one good meal a day (I may well be wrong but I believe that was the case). Now school dinners appear to be based on what children want and not what is good for them - I know I have 2 and both would happily survive on McD's, chicken nuggets and chip, and pizza and pasta. Now it surely has to be in the employer's interest to have a healthy workforce so that they can get the most work out of them for the least cost. So that could leave an employer with 3 avenues of approach -- 1 Do nothing leave the situation as it is and continue to employ temporary staff to cover for the time off work of their regular staff. Pass the onus on to the government and wait for them to sort out the problem - Maybe Mr Prescott can give some advice. 2 Employ only people with a BMI (Body Mass Indicator) of less than 15. 3 Identify the issue of obesity before it gets any worse and form a program to get their employees including the Board of Directors fit and healthy. For those of you in forward thinking companies have you any experience of anybody trying to cope with this issue and if so what was/is the result. Do you think that this has anything to do with Health and Safety at Work or is this another issue altogether. I mean smoking is an issue that has slowly become a big issue of the day with action now being taken to eradicate from the workplace because it is bad for your health and it affects other people's health - DO NOT RESPOND TO THE SMOKING COMMENT BECAUSE IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE AND NOT THE CRUX OF THIS THREAD - now if an obese person has more time off work due to ill health - directly because of obesity - then does not that also have an effect on their colleagues. Cheers Kelvin
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#2 Posted : 27 May 2004 10:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Karen Todd Hi Kelvin, I think that the most an employer can do is educate the employees, encourage them and provide them with choices. For example, provide healthy food in the canteen (if there is one) - but if the canteen stopped doing chips altogether there would be a riot! So, how would you stop someone from eating chips every day if that was what they wanted to do? If you educate the employees (e.g. through workshops, etc.) and provide choices and encouragement the rest is really down to them. Even if you provided all employees with free gym membership, or built an in-house gym, would everyone use it? Take my husband. Typical lorry driver. Has put on over 4 stone since I met him. Doctor has said to stop eating junk, stop smoking, start exercising, drink only diet drinks, etc. He is generally away for a week at a time, but can sometimes get stuck away for more than that. He has a fridge and a microwave in his lorry. I go shopping for him and buy him Tesco ready meals, mainly the Healthy eating ones, and potatoes to go with it such as mash, champ, etc which are low in fat. I also buy him carrots to snack on and other fruit, and water to drink. This is fine, but if he has to go shopping for himself while he is away, what does he buy? Coke, microwave burgers, pies, sausage rolls, crisps, chocolate bars...He knows what he should buy, buy he buys what he wants rather than what he should. How do you stop someone like that??? Karen
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#3 Posted : 27 May 2004 11:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Steve Holliday Just a comment about Point 2. It is all well and good to suggest that organisations could use BMI figures during initial selection of staff but there is a danger that BMI's do not give a good indication of obesity. (Below 15 is seriously underweight by the way) Take a professional rugby player at 6’ and 17 stone. BMI is around 33 (obese) but body fat level is probably less than 15% (underweight). Even people, particularly men, who do moderate weight work at a gym are likely to get into the overweight categories due to muscle mass weight. A large organisation local to me uses BMI’s in initial health screening for employees, but would then have trouble employing many who subsequently take up the subsidised gym membership it offers and increase their lean muscle mass. The above rugby player is supremely fit but would fail the BMI requirement for the aforementioned organisation. BMI’s are an indicator only and need to be used with caution as part of a more comprehensive assessment of health and fitness.
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#4 Posted : 27 May 2004 11:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kelvin George Steve Thanks for correcting me about the actual value of 15 being underweight and yes I agree that BMI does not always give a clear picture of what is muscle (good) and fat (bad). However from personal experience, and I admit that I'm no slim Jim but I'm no Big Daddy either, that the only consideration taken by the doctor giving me an offshore medical - who I might add must have been 17 stone if she was an ounce - was the BMI reading (27 if I remember correctly) and very nearly put me on a controlled diet just so I could go to work offshore. Cheers Kelvin
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#5 Posted : 27 May 2004 11:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young This discussion is more Occupational Health than Health & safety. Unless a persons obesity adversely affects the way that they can safely work, then I suggest that this subject is outwith our domain. I recall a train driver who was sacked because he either couldn't fit into the drivers cab or safely access the controls (can't remember which). The case went to tribunal but I don't recall the outcome. In this context, it is a H&S issue.
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#6 Posted : 27 May 2004 12:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By Derek Rooney MIOSH MIIRSM Hi guys I have to agree with everything that Karen has said & i do believe this falls into our remit. Consider someone obese, what difficulties could this pose in your workplace & what difficulties does it pose on the person himself - is he fit enough to carry out the work he is employed to do? Tasks like manual handling could be a real issue, bending, stopping, pushing, pulling & of course lifting with excess pressure already on the body from excess weight this could be a real problem. We are fortunate that we don't have many colleageus who would be considered to be obese - the ones we do fall into either Salesman or Management & not manual workers. So people who either drive most of the time or sit at a desk or travel as part of the job and therefore live in hotels meaning large meals, alcohol etc So it all goes back to what Karen said about enducation & promotion within the workplace. There are various networks throughout the UK who help companies promote health in the workplace. If your interested check out www.healthatwork.co.uk and you will find links for your area. Personnaly i think the Government should be doing more instead of ignoring the issue. Its all fine and well promoting health in the workplace & school - however what about Parents? I believe that the price on Healthy foods is the biggest reason why people don't eat properly. E.g. Full fat cheese is half the price of half/fat cheese. We should follow the example of countries like Iceland, there government subsidise healthy options meaning they are cheaper to buy than the unhealthier option - meaning that people are more inclinded to purchase them no-one likes to spend more than necessary. I'm sure this is something that could be debated all day everyday & most of us would have different opinions but the government needs to take action and we should all do our little bit by promoting it in the workplace afterall 80% of the population work.
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#7 Posted : 27 May 2004 13:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter John Campbell Quill I agree that it is part of every companys' wider responsibilies, and they should be active in educating their employees etc. I would also say that as actions are more important than words, we as professionals must address this personally. If we are not eating a healthy diet or taking regular exercise then now is the time to start. Otherwise, the next time we are handing out advise on why not to take unnecessary risks, what will those listening be thinking? Yours ... heading down the gym and taking his belly (and some employees) with him. Peter
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#8 Posted : 27 May 2004 15:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rachel Valentine I am afraid I am also in agreement that information and education are they key, as it is seen by most as a very personal issue. We have recently introduced the health for life scheme on a voluntary basis, which is a distance-learning course, open to all our employees and their friends and family. The course covers Health & Fitness as well as a section on dietary requirements and once complete, awards a nationally recognised Level 1 Certificate in Exercise Studies. This is the first time we have run it here, so as yet I have no indicator of its success, however the accompanying course literature mentions that this scheme is currently being supported in various Police Forces, Fire Brigades, Local Councils and NHS trusts. The website for this is www.healthforlifeonline.net. Rachel. p.s. I forgot to mention the best bit about all this, IT'S FREE! As it stands the course s fully funded by the Learning and Skills Council (LSC)
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#9 Posted : 27 May 2004 15:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young Since when has diet, exercise and fitness been part of a NEBOSH or equivalent qualification or the remit of a Health & Safety professional. This whole discussion falls into the realms of Occupational Health. Haven't we got enough to deal with without trying to invade the territory of other disciplines.
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#10 Posted : 27 May 2004 16:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Hilary Charlton How many of us can cut clear lines between environmental issues, environmental health, health and safety and occupational health. Surely all these subjects are linked by a common theme - the health, safety and welfare of staff. Perhaps this is where the welfare comes in? Additionally, perhaps we should look on stress values on other members of staff if people are continually off sick - surely this comes under health and safety although also falls into occupational health. The question I have is "how does one deal with this subject in a tactful manner?". Hilary
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#11 Posted : 27 May 2004 16:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Karen Todd Ron, If I am correct, there was a question on the NEBOSH General Certificate June 2002 paper (which I sat) which asked you to identify the risks to a lorry driver's health and safety. So, when I identified risks to his safety, I talked about things like being struck by other vehicles, falling from height (off trailers), dangerous goods, etc. Then when I talked about risks to his health, I talked about things like whole body vibration, back problems, typically poor diet, sedentary position all day, lack of exercise, etc. See also this article about the matter: http://www.guardian.co.u...4273%2C4334639%2C00.html Karen
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#12 Posted : 27 May 2004 16:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Martin Daly Maybe you should take a look at the way this issue is handled in Japan. In Japan it is not unusual for everyone directors included to arrive at work early to do exercises etc and the company believes the health of the worker is the health of the company. Yours Martin Daly
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#13 Posted : 27 May 2004 18:15:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike Miller Occupational health is a health and safety issue. Consider the HSE/HSC strategies that go some way to recognising that work causes ill health. 'Good health is good business' 'Securing health together' 'Revitalising health and safety' 'Health of the Nation' 'Healthy workplace initiative' 'working well together' Safety practitioners, occ health practioners, managers and workers should all be working to reduce ill-health effects at work. Occ health is the poor relation when it comes to preventitive measures because the results are not obvious, instant or if indeed recognised. Occupational health issues are not targeted like other safety issues because they are often difficult to tackle. Illness relating to work can have long latency periods. There may be complications that relate to home or leisure activities. Where employers make risk assessments, many fail to identify important health risks and expend time on lesser, safety related issues. There is a need for greater awareness about the benefits of working together as a team to tackle ill health. Ill health costs the tax payer billions of pounds every year. Work makes people ill. Good occ health strategies save money and rehabilitates people back into paid work. and in effect creates employment. I agree that safety practioners are not occ health professionals, however they can and should play a part.
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#14 Posted : 27 May 2004 20:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Laurie Be careful if you're thinking about employment restrictions. Under some conditions obesity might be regarded as a disability, and discrimination might become a factor Laurie
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#15 Posted : 28 May 2004 12:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rob Todd Here we go again! I do wish that we could stop nannying people in this country. Fine - explain what is good for you and leave it at that. All some people want to do is ban, ban, ban. To me that is fascistic and dictatorial. If someone wants to be fat then good luck to them - it's certainly not my place to either subject them to ridicule or patronise them. (I am 6 foot 2 and 14 and three quarter stone (and a rugby player as per Steve Holliday's note), so hardly skinny in case anyone asks). It's not so long ago that the medical profession were slagging off diets and people for being too skinny and warning that kids were in danger of getting anorexia! It seems that unless you fit a perfect (who's definition?) model of a human, you are likely to die early, in pain, with cancer, cost the state money, burden on everyone else blah, blah blah - stuff and nonsense. What rot! - happy to inform and supply information on health but not to do anything else with occasional practical H&S exceptions for example, ladder and chair strengths (i.e. stronger chairs for people over 16 stone etc.).
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#16 Posted : 28 May 2004 16:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Dunlop In response Rob Todd The british Army has a good idea of the perfect human geing as follows Size 12 collar, 48 inch chest (male),28 inch waist, 48 inch hips, 36inch inside leg and size 12 boots
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#17 Posted : 29 May 2004 22:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Taylor I take the view that 'Health and Safety at Work' means 'Health at Work' and 'Safety at Work'. Health should be of interest to us in the H&S profession in so far as: (a) health affects safe working; and (b) work affects health. With regard to obesity, I've not been able to do much more that supply health education literature on healthy eating and exercise - except that I have recently prevented a school from purchasing a deep-fat fryer as part of a new kitchen (on the argument that an expensive fire suppression system would be required for the extract ducting) despite the opposition of the catering consultants and the caterer - who were concerned to provide what children would be more inclined to select than what is good for them (and in line with DfES guidance for healthy eating). A lot more education sems to be needed in this area.
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#18 Posted : 01 June 2004 10:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young Good luck to you all in your quest at getting the obese healthier. Me, I'll let my occ health section advise them of the errors of their ways and to promote healthy living, as if they don't already know. I'll keep assessing the areas where they work to ensure that they're size is not increasing their risk of accidents or injury.
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#19 Posted : 01 June 2004 15:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By John Webster "This morning on Breakfast News they stated that there are concerns that obesity is going to kill more people than smoking". Well I've got news for Kelvin, and them. Life is going to kill more than both put together. Cut the cr*p - we've all got to have something written on the death certificate, avoid one cause and we just add to a different statistic. So where do we as H&S practitioners, come into this? Our job is to minimise those statistics caused by a work activity or factors within a workplace. No more, no less. This bears no comparison with the workplace smoking debate, based on the presence of environmental tobacco smoke. Obese people bring no harmful substance into the workplace. I doubt if anyone has compiled statistics, but it would not surprise me if obese people have fewer accidents than their fellow perfect examples of human health. Because we are big, there is just this irrational belief that we are clumsy. Bow Locks. We tend to be more aware of the space around us - or lack of it - and more cautious about the load bearing capacity of seating, ladders, platforms etc. We know when we fall or strike something it hurts more. Try walking into a door with the inertia of 8 stones, now do it with 22 stones! We know we are already carrying a weight, so take more care when lifting. But when we wait for help to share a load, or go get a barrow instead of carrying it, when we take time to assess a task, and find the easiest, safest way of doing it instead of rushing at it, we are accused of being lazy fat b'stards. We may be more prone to diabetes and arthritis, but we are less likely to suffer a broken leg from playing football or skiing. Less likely to need a helicopter off the mountain. Less likely to be flattened whilst riding our bikes. And probably less prone to malignant melanoma and drowning. As for Kevin's "tackle the root cause of their problem ie being fat" statement, that's offensive and shows a complete lack of understanding and, may I say, demonstrates pejudice. Surely he would not use the same statement with "being skinny" about an anorexic person, "being crippled" about a wheelchair user or "being a queer" about a homosexual? Or would he? We come in all shapes and sizes. Our physical dimensions roughly follow a normal distribution. There are those in the tails of the distribution who are naturally there. There is nothing they can, or should do about it. Its just the way they are. I don't hear calls for the government to insist on the nutritional value of food being reduced to halt the explosion of tall people. Yet one day building standards, and those for furniture, will have to be changed to accommodate a population where 6'6" is unexeptional. Do I hear calls for banning them from work because of the risk of injury from door frames and low ceilings? No siree, that would be discriminatory. But its their own fault for eating such nutritious food as a child. Maybe if we starve them they will shrink again. Laughable. So why do the Kelvins of this world seem to think that is always the answer to obesity? Then there are those who just enjoy good food and drink and would rather be sitting at a convivial table than suffering the stink of sweat, socks and linament at the gym. Theirs is a lifestyle choice. It gives them pleasure which jogging definitely does not. Only the first heart attack is likely to make a ha'p'th of difference. Yet is what they are doing any more dangerous than the dangerous sports with which the virtuous indulge themselves? What about metabolic disorders? Your body thinks it is at its "ideal" weight, so is stable, its just got the numbers wrong. Dieting automatically leads to tiredness and lethargy to reduce the body's need of food. Exercising pushes up the desire for food to compensate. Many obese people have deep phsychological problems. We now treat anorexia and bullimia as a form of mental illness centered around self image and self worth issues and often associated with depression, stress, anxiety etc. We no longer seek to stuff an anorexic with food, and enforced rest. Yet many overweight people have just the same problems and only gradually is even the medical profession beginning to recognise this and treat accordingly rather than handing out diet sheets. We never hear of the phsychological problems of the obsessive exerciser, hooked on endorphine and adrenaline or with an adonis complex, heading for burnout but terrified to stop in case they put on an ounce of weight. And of course there are a few who really are just lasy slobs, and they are probably the only ones for whom education campaigns and lower price healthy food could make a difference. So there are no easy answers, and most obese adults will remain that way, see-sawing between the hopeless diet and the depressingly tight belt, the butt of endless jokes, snide remarks and uninformed comment by those who think themselves somehow superior because they have been blessed with the "right" BMI. Yes, we need to get back to proper food in schools, but we also need to get physical activity back, doing things that every child can enjoy - the old enforced cross country run was enough to put anyone off running for life. We also need a more enlightened, holistic approach from the medical profession. We should assess workplace factors which affect health in all ways, but when it comes to assessing employees as fit for work, all must be treated equally. I can think of very few tasks for which obesity per se would disqualify. Some mention the increased risk of heart attack. Well lets get this in perspective. Firstly its just that, an increased risk. Second, the risk is even higher amongst stressed out, skinny, hypertensive senior managers, thirdly obesity is but one indicator. For example I am obese but my blood pressure and cholesterol levels are normal and there is little history of heart disease in the family. Whilst currently excluded from the Disability Discrimination Act, once mobility is affected, obesity could easily fit the official definition of a disability. Then instead of sacking train drivers, we would have to make reasonable adjustments to the controls. I bet they would do something for a short driver who had difficulty seeing over the console. Jeremy Clarkson has been mentioned in this forum. His pet hate - apart from H&S - is car manufacturers who don't make seats adjust far enough for his legs and put the roof to low for his head. His grouse is seen as reasonable by most people. So why does nobody care that the seats in Macdonalds are screwed so close to the tables that it is impossible some to get in? The BMI requirement for offshore workers was really brought in to both reduce the payload on helicopters and as a means of filtering out those who might not easily fit through the rear escape hatch of a Super Puma (I always sat by the door). It is not a measure of fitness, and is deeply flawed. Remember Rhino, one of the Gladiators. At 5'10" and close on 20 stone he would be classed as "morbidly obese". A joke or what? Of course, the Government needs whipping boys, especially when it's popularity is sliding. With NHS high on the list of public concerns, firstly smokers were to blame for sapping its resources, now its the obese. Naturally the Government has to be seen to be doing something to allay that concern, so we have a few quid thrown at health education campaigns. Of course, smokers pay a lot of extra duty to the exchequer, so they don't want to stop it altogether. And if the obese tend to have shorter lifespans, so much the better. There will be problems paying all those state pensions to long lasting old people, and remember how many fat cats are also in public service with their superannuation to be paid out. So get off our case - we are really doing you a favour!
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