Posted By Karen Todd Is that why, when a bus crashes, there is a rush to get on the bus rather than get off the bus? Is it also why there are people who, for a small fee, will have a minor crash in a minibus full of fellow compensation seekers? Is this also why there has been a proliferation of no win-no fee solicitors. It is my belief that there is a compensation culture. It is common knowledge that the standard payout for whiplash is £3k, so people think, "Why not"? Karen

Posted By Karen Todd John, I remain to be persuaded and will hold on to my "belief" for the time being. I have had discussions with insurance company representatives on the subject, who have agreed that there is a claims culture. However, I am sited in NI so there might be other reasons why we seem to have a claims culture here, it might be interesting to look at how different areas in the UK compare to each other. When I was a H&S consultant, I was told by the Group H&S Manager of a company I did a safety audit for that she had received a letter of intent to claim for damages - for a broken thumbnail!!! And no, it was not a painful injury nor did it require removal of the nail or anything like that - the person broke part of the tip of their thumbnail off (an everyday occurrence for us ladies), which was rectified by the use of a pair of nail clippers! Karen

Posted By Alec Wood Tabloids are much more the reflection of public perception than its architects. The perception of the general public is precisely becaue the judicial system has become so bad at weeding out the good deserving cases from the chancers, and the costs of just getting into the courtroom are so vast that almost all insurers will surrender liability unless they are presented with an absolute water-tight defense. They can afford to do this and just recover the premiums later. I remain very much with Karen and the other sceptics. Maybe we should start a "most ridiculous claim" thread, bet there are a few good tales to be told there...... Alec Wood Samsung Electronics

Posted By Karen Todd John, I don't know what the outcome was, but I would assume that it (hopefully) didn't get very far! In NI, I do believe we have more of a claims culture than anywhere else in the UK - I think there are only 5 companies who will provide Employers Liability Insurance and there are companies who have had to fold because they can't get insurance. I had a squad of steel erectors tell us that they couldn't get their insurance renewed for the next year and I had to tell them that under no circumstances could we continue to work with them. Also, I pay £600/yr for my car insurance which is about average here - I bet you guys are only paying about £300. And if a 17 year old male driver wants to take out car insurance in his own name, he could pay £1200 - £2000+ for his first year's premium. Look at the car insurance ads the next time they come on the TV - they all say "Cover not available in Northern Ireland"! With regards to a Most Ridiculous Claim thread, I read the Stupid Accidents article in SHP magazine and I did wonder if any of these "silly" accidents resulted in claims - the scald from coffee spilt down a wellie boot whilst being poured in a moving van, the eye poked with the leg of the safety glasses whilst being donned, etc. Karen

Posted By huw snell As someone who deals with claims for an insurance company both for motor and EL/PL. There is a rising trend for personal injury cases and it doesn't help that increased advertising, or publicity to make people more aware of their rights to compensation. I cite the recent RAC campaign as an example. I agree peoples expectations have been inflated by promises of large financial sums but at the end of the day the only winners are the lawyers. Despite the number of allegedly spurious claims we cannot afford to investigate every single claim in detail as the costs would become prohibitively expensive, which would be then in turn lead to increased premiums. In respect of PL/EL claims most spurious claims can be repudiated providing that our insureds can demonstrate that they have in place safe systems of work and can provide documentation to support any denials not just rely on "shiny" documents provided by head office. There needs to be enforcement in the workplace that is why insurers need to work in partnership with their insureds and vice versa not against them.

Posted By Peter MacDonald http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3767571.stm Imagine the costs of insurance for the LA if this claim is successful. Millions of people have walked over that stretch of pavement since the last inspection and an inspection of the pavement recently shows it's in good nick. (I went to see it this morning). Now quantify what you know; 1 recorded accident since the last inspection. At least 1000 people minimum a day going past that pub on the Royal Mile, day and night, sober, drunk, disabled, tiny tots etc. Over 5 years you get an incident rate of one in eighteen million. If the LA are negligent then they surely would have to use that potential incident rate as the action level for all pavements in their care. Mmmmh, expensive. Probably cheaper to let the odd one fall over. I for one hope this womans case falls flat on it's face. Oh, and the pavement hasn't been remediated as there's sod all wrong with it.

Posted By Zoe Barnett I recently appeared, trembling with fright, as a witness for the defence in court when my LA decided to contest a claim. The case was a small boy who had cut his knee in the school loos - he said he slipped but we were sceptical due to the layout of the room etc. One of the bits of evidence was a photo of the lad's knee with the stitches and in her evidence the mum said it had been taken on the day after the accident by "the man from Claims Direct". The court believed us and the claim was dismissed, but not before a scared ten year old had been cross examined by two barristers and a judge(albeit in the nicest possible way). His story fell apart and it left the distinct impression that he had been "coached" in what to say. I have also heard from a headteacher recently that she'd had to take a child to hospital following an accident. When the mother arrived at A&E her first words were not "How's my daughter" but "I'm going to sue." Needless to say it is this case that got the publicity - helped no doubt by the fact that the mamma in question was seen in the playground advising other parents that suing was a good idea and waving her compensation cheque around. How I wish there had been a sudden strong gust of wind just then. There is a growing band of ambulance chasers and I have been stopped by them in the high street when out with my son - "you have a little one, I expect you want him to be safe at school don't you?" Needless to say they shut up sharpish when I tell them I am the LEA H&S adviser. All this I think just adds weight to the idea that there is a compensation culture and it's becoming increasingly ruthless. The question is, surely, how to allow real deserving claims to go ahead whilst stopping those who are just in it for a quick buck?

Posted By John Allen My most ridiculous case was the nurse who on a home visit injured herself trying to save an elderly patient from slipping in the bath. She had received no training other than in use of the standard equipment and the extra pairs of hands available in hospitals and no instruction on what to do under such circumstances. After struggling on for some months with an increasingly sore back her GP finally signed her off and prescribed physiotherapy. After one session the physiotherapist suspected there was something more seriously wrong with her back. Several more months and sessions of consultancy later a Shnorl’s Node was diagnosed. This resulted in a three hour operation to fuse the spinal vertebrae and insert a metal plate in her back followed by several weeks of bed rest and recuperation. The operation was conducted under her husband’s private medical insurance through his employment; her employers being unable even to treat their own wounded. Three years after the original accident she was finally invalided out of her job. Her claim for compensation was handled by one of the largest trade union affiliated law firms specialising in personal injury. Unfortunately due to a combination of factors beyond her control she eventually received a minimal sum in compensation. Six years after the accident she was able to return to part time employment, in a caring role, much to her personal satisfaction. The nurse concerned is my wife. You see, we all have stories that we have personal knowledge of, but as I said yesterday they don’t prove the generality. For every fraudulent or exaggerated claim there are probably ten genuine accidents many of which never become claims. Or through flaws in the legal profession (solicitors have the same range of competency as other professions) and the availability of evidence (always difficult in the case of a lone worker) they are either unsuccessful or receive minimal compensation. So why are WE dredging up undeserving claim stories? We are Safety Practitioners. Our job is to keep people safe. Surely if we are to tell stories it is the hundreds of preventable accidents and unnecessary injuries we have all encountered in our careers? Victims of accidents nearly always suffer losses which are not compensated by civil awards. One of the other morals of this story is the employers concerned sustained almost no costs as a result of this accident. Their failure to do any sort of risk assessment, take any foreseeable precautions or even officially report the accident once it had resulted in lost time was not penalised in any way. The employee bore most of the costs (six years loss of earnings alone) and the insurance company the rest. The individual claim certainly made no difference to their EL premium. Remember most of the great legal decisions which frame the rights of employees to safety at work (Edwards v NCB , GCC v Christmas etc) come from civil claims. Not surprisingly there is a vested interest in discouraging claims!

Posted By Alec Wood "Surely if we are to tell stories it is the hundreds of preventable accidents and unnecessary injuries we have all encountered in our careers? " Very true. But many of us also deal with all our firms' claims on a day to day basis so this subject is of great interest also. And it is these claims which contribute to the perception of a 'claims culture', not the genuine ones, so it is these which are relevant to this particular thread. I would love to spend all my resources making the place safer, but it is a sad fact that we do spend time and money on protecting ourselves from these less deserving claims. Every penny we spend doing so is a penny which would be better spent preventing the "real" accident you describe. It would be nice to see more debate of the genuine accidents, but we are not always free to discuss those that happen in our own workplace, or we see their occurance as personal failings so we don't highlight them ourselves. These may be some of the reasons why they appear less on these forums. By debating the valueless claims maybe we can gain some insight into how to better protect ourselves against them, leaving us more able to persue the activities we all came into this vocation to do - making the workplace a genuinely safer place. Alec Wood Samsung Electronics