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Posted By Katiem
Good Afternoon All,
I'm in a bit of a confusion at the moment so please forgive me if I'm asking a silly question.
Due to recent tradgic events, there has been an increase in the number of fire inspection of residential carehomes. This is indeed very welcome. However there seems to be a great degree of inconsistance within the reports issued-this is not a critism of the fire services, they have been asked to do this by the Care Commision (Scotland)-as a consequence the Care Commision jump on the "recommendations" of the report and request implementation.
Now here's the rub..."recommendations" and "requirements" in health and safety and in legal terms imply very different things. This distinction is perhaps a little less clear to those in the Care Commision-No offence.
My point is this, these reports recommend action to be taken to comply with particular British Standards. The Care Commission wish the now "requirements" of the report to be carried out swifty.
Fire Inspection reports I have seen recently quote the standards as highlighted in "Scottish Health Technical Memorandum 1984"-which I have been unable to local-can anyone help here-so I'm finding it difficult to ascertain what direct action should be taken in orer to "appease" the Care Commission, but in my mind comply with the correct Statute/Standard and of course improve health and safety.
Sorry if this appears to be a bit of a rant. I find it incredulous that you cannot find any evidence to support what two diffent professional boths are asking which regularly condtradict and conflict.
Answers of a postcard please.
Many thanks and apologies once again for the rant.
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Posted By Keith Egerton
It is my understanding that British Standards as such have no legal standing.
However, they can be cited as the 'current state of knowledge' (provided the most recent version is used) and hence have influence from this point of view as an employer could claim by following a BS, that they were acting in line with current knowledge and hence acting 'reasonably practicable'.
However, I think in certain cases British Standards can be 'called' (this is the legal term I believe) into legislation, but I don't think this is done too often.
So far as I'm aware from the H&S point of view British Standards have been 'called' in the legislation controlling the make up/content/power of fireworks and in the design/manufacture of childrens prams/buggies etc.
There may be other examples, but I don't know of any.
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Posted By steve e ashton You may find the standard you are looking for at www.nhsestates.gov.uk/do...ns_guidance/es_HTM83.pdf HTMs are not quite the same as British Standards, although they do seem to carry a similar status within the Health Services. If you have a fire risk assessment carried out (by a consultant or anyone else) and you don't understand the report they have prepared for you - or the report is subject to challenge by another 'expert' - then you are entitled to go back to the author and ask for an explanation or further clarification. Hope this helps a little. I have previous experience of different official bodies disagreeing over the standards that should be applied in particular circumstances, and can understand your need for rant. Steve
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Posted By Linda Westrupp
Dear Colleague
I can very well understand your problem, we are having similar problems with Care Standards Insepctors. Unfortunately, they do not seem to have had any H&S training and much of what you get from them is personal opinion. HTMs are best obtained from NHS Estates although many of them will be out of date or out of issue. We, in social care, have no obligation to follow HTM guidance but it is sensible to try to adopt these as they are generally at a higher standard.
You could challenge CSCI about their misunderstanding of the difference between requirements and recommendations but so far we have had very little success.
I would urge everyone in this position to join NASHICS (National Association for Safety and Health in Care) as we are trying to have a voice with CSCI to resolve some of these conflicts.
Hope this helps and I do sympathise
Linda
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Posted By Laurie
British Standards can carry legal clout in some circumstances I think.
For instance, motor cycle crash helmets must carry the BSI kitemark to be legal for road use, and I think car windscreens were the same, though this may have changed since European standarisation of Construction & Use Regulations
Laurie
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Posted By Neil Cooper
I think you'll find that the Building Regulations in both England and Scotland have for a number of years made HTM 81 a statutory requirement for new builds. For premises already in use HTM 81 is not relevant and HTM 85 and HTM 86 are therefore used for healthcare premise fire safety management and fire risk assessment. These are statutory in the NHS but only guidance in non NHS premises. However if you are undertaking a fire risk assessment to meet the requirements of the Fire Workplace Regs in a non NHS premise,I think you would be on a weak case not meeting standards laid down for NHS premises.
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