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Posted By MarkSMark
I have recently persuaded management to send two employees on a first aid course. Both volunteered to go on this course however one of them is now upset that I have had him moved onto the nighshift so that both the night and day shift can be covered.
I am now getting reports from the day first-aider that the equipment in the box is going missing and getting damaged. The night first aider is the only other person with a key to the box so it must be him.
If the company terminates his employment can we charge him for the first aid course and wasting the company time? The equipment is not being used to treat any injuries that occur at work as I have CCTV of the production areas and most other areas and have not seen anyone being injured. The first aid box now has no bandages and few plasters as the employee refuses to pay for replacements.
I have advised him to pay for the replacements as if someone is injured at work and can not get proper first aid treatment he is leaving himself open to civil action.
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Posted By Mike Miller
Hi Mark
Have you established that it is him/ or could it be someone else who has taken a dislike to him on the shift and is seting him up, you know the kind of thing I mean (theft from the till when a new barman starts) If it is him you could sack him but a tribunal will ask what else you have done to resolve the matter. No you cannot charge him for the training but might be able to charge him for the stolen goods if you can establish that he was solely responsible. Question is! is it worth it?
The damage he could do whilst working a notice will be horrific. Needs thinking about
Mike
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Posted By Mark Eden
Surely this is a wind up !
some one is making this up just to get every body to comment on on the ridiculous situation
If what this moron is saying has any credence then I would not want to work in the same company.
I will look forward to reading a tribunal report on their findings when the company gets a hammering.
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Did you even ask the guy if he would go on nights ?
Have you bothered to check the legal requirements for same ?
Did you ask if he wanted a health assessment first ?
And how about the working time requirements ?
You could say he is on a hazardous regime, so 8 hours is the max.
Now, you can't just assume guilt...you need a confession or evidence.
Have you reported the theft/s ?
I hope the guy gets some sort of legal assistance...'cause you ain't too bright.
Oh, and the first aid equipment should be available for ANYONE to use, NOT just first aiders...and both it and the incident book should not be locked away.
By the way mate, it's 2004 now, not 1804.
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Oh, and the resonsibility for providing the first aid equipment and materials is your companies...so you had better get it replaced, because the company is liable...."persuaded" the management....you had to PERSUADE them to fulfil a legal requirement ?
Obviously, you need someone to advise you; and badly.
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Posted By John Murphy
Remove any potential satisfaction this guy may get from his lack of common sense and foolishness by treating this thread with the obvious contempt it deserves.
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Posted By Mark Bywater
Dear all,
Having experienced the last thread from this chap, it may be wise just to ignore it and let it die a natural death.
I feel we are spending too much time trying to educate others here who will not change their views or just enjoy sending us all up, where time is better spent advising those of us who are willing and keen to learn no matter how long in the tooth we are.
Apply no first aid to this thread and it will fall off this mortal coil - but please don't get drawn into MarkSMark's little world of make-believe safety.
Regards to all (especially all my "new" friends in local government - sorry again!)
Regards,
Mark
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Posted By Ron Young
Of course you can charge him for the first aid course and the missing equipment.
I'm a bit surprised though that you never disciplined him and docked his pay for taking time off from work when he was doing the first aid course. Unless that is, if he did it when he was on holiday...
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Can I suggest Mark that you "persuade" your managers to send you on a health and safety course - there are some quite good ones available. Most people start with the NEBOSH certificate and then move on to the Diploma or NVQ4 - I think this may help your perspective on these health and safety issues that you are obviously having a problem with. Meanwhile, suggest you do nothing until you know what you are actually talking about.
Hilary
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Posted By David A Jones
A number of points:
1)Was the individual made aware before agreeing to the training that his shift would be changed from days to nights? - if not you may have a constructive dismissal claim on your hands
2) Why did you not obtain volunteers from the night shift?
3) If you only have two first aiders, how do you comply with your legal obligations when someone is off? (e.g. annual leave or sick)
4)Do you have any proof that it is this individual who is stealing the first aid equipment?
I could go on, but the above are some of the basics.
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Posted By Ian Stone
This is a wind up right??
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Posted By Lewis T Roberts
Fantastic Mark,
We fine our employees for minor breaches of safety to the tune of £30:00. This then goes towards the cost of PPE for those individuals that can not aford their own.
Good eh?
Lew
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Posted By Liam Nolan
I suggest that you give us this 'theiving' employees contact details.
Then we would be able to advise him on what his rights are.
Or else why not fire him straight away, no warnings, no oppertunity to improve, just get shut of him.
Of course then you would find out exactly what type of legel advice he would get.
Just a thought, you are in the UK? not Africa?
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Posted By Bill Elliott
Mark - I have a cunning plan!
Why not set up a motion detector and link it to the CCTV so that you can get the evidence necessary to sack this dishonest individual.AND/OR. link the opening of the first aid box to a bell or siren that alerts the night supervisor. Petty crime of this nature is just the beginning - it could lead to all sorts of problems - drug abuse; drug dealing; aggravated burglarly; manslaughter - the list is endless. Get rid of him - Quick!
Yeah Right!!
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Posted By Robert Kingston
Liam, we are operating in West Africa and comply to the same standards as in the UK. Please don't think we are any different to you. Indeed many a UK company would not have in place the same standards and HSE management systems as we operate.
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Posted By Kate Graham
I fear we may have an agent provocateur on our hands who is seeking to beguile people into making absurd suggestions in a spirit of irony which could then, however, be quoted elsewhere as genuine examples of "Health and Safety Gone Mad".
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Posted By Neil Pearson
Anyone seen the film Aliens? The extended version had these robot machine-guns that they left in the corridor to mow down naughty monsters. I just realised what a brilliant safety measure they could be. Just set them up say in an office, and program them to watch for people whose posture isn't quite right. MarkSMark will be so cross he didn't think of this first.
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Posted By James Byatt
Wouldn't work Neil,
after the majority of the work force got mowed down, the union reps would get together, have a couple of meetings and then come in via the cieling ducts and grab Mark from above.
I suspect they're creeping through the suspended ceiling on their way to the marks CCTV control room as we speak....
Unfortunately there's nothing left in his first aid box for burns from acid-blood.
James
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Posted By Patrick Teyhan
I would suggest flogging the offender to within an inch or 25.4mm of his miserable life;
clap him in Irons;
use the remaining bandages on the (alleged) offender and then put him in a stocks for a spell.
Make an example of him, before the entire workforce, but consider is Counselling out of the question?
Kind Regards
Patrick Teyhan
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Posted By fats van den raad
This is sooooooo amusing. I can't understand why people are having a go at Mark. threads like these provide much needed entertainment. It's really good to see a thread like this among all the other more serious, valuable (and very necesary)threads, just to brighten the day. I can't decide what I like most, the original post, the replies from those who didn't see through it or the OTT suggestions from those that did!!!
Ohyeah, by the way, why pick on Africa as a supposedly Victorian equivalent. You obviously have no experience of industry in Africa, as another response to your misguided remark pointed out.
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Posted By Steve White
He's just trying to break his last thread record for the number of responses to a 'bad' idea!!!
Let's move on, as someone once said "you cannot be serious" either that or I need to check my diary to see what century I am in?
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Posted By David A Jones
If this is not a wind-up - and judging by Mark's previous postings and comments on others' postings it isn't - then if he is a member of IOSH it seems as though he is dangerously close to failing to adhere to the IOSH code of professional conduct (if he has not already crossed the line):
Code point 3: Members called on to give an opinion in their professional capacity shall be honest and, to the best of their ability, objective and reliable.
Code point 4: Members shall take all reasonable steps to obtain, maintain and develop their professional competence ....
Code point 5: Members shall not undertake responsibilities as health and safety practitioners which they do not believe themselves competent to discharge. Members shall acknowledge any limitations in their own competence.
Code point 8: Members shall have regard to the reputation and good standing of IOSH, other members, and professional practice and standards shall not knowingly bring them into dispute.
Code point 15: Members shall aim to maintain high quality work at all times
I'm not against a bit of a laugh on this forum and the odd humourous posting to get a good argument going - but I'm not sure that Mark has made any contributions other than those where it is difficult to tell whether it is all a wind-up or not.
So Mark, lets have some sensible contributions as well as the off the wall comments.
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Posted By Struan
Mark I think that what you are doing is absolutely correct, in principle,-but have you considered nocturnal occurances as perpeptrated by the notorious "Sore Finger Pixie"?
Is there another riveting story next week?
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Posted By MarkSMark
Thankyou for responses, some have been slightly offensive but I think they had humourous intent. Special thanks for the helpful responses. I was not aware of a code of conduct- does every safety manager have to abide by this or just members of IOSH- I am not a member yet.
The idea of fining staff for breaking safety rules could be quite useful and I'll look into it. I have heard that a company cant charge for safety equipment- so is it okay to use these fines to pay for PPE? I assume from the responses to my question that first aid equipment is also counted as safety equipment (I was unsure of that before).
Re: Safety training. I will look into the nebosh certificate but will have to see the costs and time it takes.
I have decided to replace the first aid equipment using petty cash, and have withdrawn both keys and given them to the night watch man. He will record with a signature and time who accesses the first aid key. This way everyone has access to the first aid box and I can prove who has been at it so there can be no set ups.
Mark
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Posted By Adam Jackson
Please will someone give this guy a monthly column in the Practitioner, it would be worth the annual subscription on its own.
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Posted By Rod Douglass
Guys,
This bloke is wind up merchant......
However there are stupid people out there...May be authentic!!!!!
Aye,
Rod
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Posted By Hilary Charlton
Gobsmacked!
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Posted By Richard L
I wonder what will be the next question from MarkSMark’s wacky world of health and safety.
Please Mark, don’t keep us waiting while next week; we are all dying to know!
No don’t tell us, your introducing a policy where non complying, thieving underlings are tied to a post, blindfolded, and publicly humiliated by being flogged with a horse whip until they see the error of their ways.
No! you aren’t serious.
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Posted By Fran Holt
give this guy his own spot ..... excellent!
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Posted By David A Jones
Mark,
It appears from your last posting on this thread that you are new to health and safety and have no (or very limited)qualifications in health and safety - and I also suspect that the company you work for has not had a professional safety adviser in the past.
You may feel that your intiatives are well thought out, but hopefully some of the criticism from this forum has shown you that it is misguided rather than just slating you. If you are serious about the health and safety profession, you must be prepared to listen to others and learn what is considered to be best practice (and then adapt to your workplace as appropriate)- perhaps any future postings you have should ask for advice early on rather than after the problem has escalated (maybe that is what you intended by your postings)
Other than this forum, do you have regular contact with professional healh and safety advisers - if not I suggest you join IOSH and attend some of your local branch meetings. Another option would be to persuade someone from this forum to act as a mentor - where are you based? There may be someone local to you willing to meet up on a regular basis to guide your development (by coaching rather than telling you what to do)
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Posted By Eric Burt
David
I support your suggestion about mentoring. Unfortunately not all Health and Safety Advisers (or potential H&S Advisers) have employers who will support formal training courses such as the NEBOSH Certificate.
There is also the HSE "Good Neighbour" scheme which Mark could take a look at - this scheme is for organisations who need some help with H&S (and it sounds like Mark's organisation needs some guidance).
Unfortunately Mark only uses a Hotmail address so I can't tell which part of the country he is from nor the industry, but if he is serious about promoting good health and safety practice this could be a positive way forward.
Eric
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Posted By Laurie
Some of these suggestions are really stupid.
The best way to cure somebody who steals first aid equipment is to make sure they have an accident. Then when there is no first aid material available to treat their injuries you can laugh and say "Serves you right"!
Laurie
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Posted By Richard L
Yeah right Laurie,
I can just see the RIDDOR report now:-
Erm well I was like, this the IP was walking along and all of a sudden he was legged….. oops I mean er fell over causing him to fall on the knife we ad already planted…. Erm I mean which was already there causing him to sustain injuries from which he well, bled to death. No worries though cos if he aint av nicked the bleeding bandages in the first place we might ave been able to do somfing so er well it serves him right.
Are you somehow related to Marky-Boy?
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Posted By Gilly Margrave
No Richard,
Some thieving ***** has nicked all the F2508s and the Accident book - until Marky finds out who did it he won't be able to report it.
Gilly
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Posted By Jack
By making this posting I'm part of the problem but what the hell. Why on earth are so many professional h&s advisers responding to the weekly posts of someone who is obviously a troll. Lets leave the boy Mark to manage his first aid boxes while the rest of us carry on with our proper jobs.
- - not in IOSH yet! Well there's a surpise.
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Posted By CHRISTOPHER HAYWARD
Leaving aside the the merits(?) or otherwise of the original posting (provocation), some of the rest of the thread has been very disturbing.
The willingness with which a few members of this forum resort to abuse and spite ought to cause the moderator and others within IOSH to pause for thought.
Is it this rough in other "professional" forums?
Yours in amazement
Chris
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Really ?
Maybe you're right.
I think Mr Mark displays all the tact and managerial skills that far too many companies have today. And is the main reason why so many are losing so much in insurance claims and civil litigation (which includes industrial tribunals).
Of course, many claim it is the "compensation culture", but in the real world it is the result of managerial bullying (as in Mr Marks' case) or managerial ineptness (same again).
I can see where professional people may get mildly annoyed, especially when they're dealing with idiots masquerading as managers.
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Posted By Delwynne
Although I am tempted to believe that this and the prior posting by Mark are a wind up, I would just like to point out that Marks response to comments made this time appears to show that he is taking on board comments made. It is difficult without knowing all the details of the situation to say that he should not be locking the first aid box, sacking the first aider etc. I think some peoples responses have been a little too personal, although Marks views are very extreme we should be encouraging him to find suitable alternatives to the situations he has described not lampooning him. As so many people have reacted so strongly I think the one thing we have established is that Mark/Marks company are not the only ones out there with an 'old school' approach. Obviously it's an attitude which has struck a nerve!
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Not so.
The fact that both he, and his company, have little knowledge of basic industrial requirements is not new. Rather the opposite, it is quite refreshing to see, despite all the publicity and intense bombardment of industry with leaflets and other material, how little management actually take on board.
The company I work for has the same quality of management, in fact it took a visit from H&S to get them to admit that ANYONE has access to the first aid box and that ANYONE can fill in the incident book and that BOTH cannot be locked away. They trained two guys in first aid, both useless. But another member of the workforce is a fully trained St Johns ambulance technician (shortly to be an NHS ambulance tech) he is far more useful...in fact when one guy collapsed with chest pains HE called an ambulance IN SPITE of management refusing to do it.
It just goes to show, mark is not alone in his ignorance and uncaring attitude.
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Posted By JD Daley
I note one original post from MSM, with another single follow-up post by the same person and nearly 40 responses.
Definitely a wind-up! is fishing this easy in the UK! :)
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