Posted By Kenny McGillivray Has anyone any experience of the CSCS card for Health & Safety Manager. I have been told that my NEBOSH Certificate, IOSH Diploma and corporate membership of IOSH does not count and I have to sit a Health & Safety Test. it also states on the CSCS application form that achievement of an SVQ in occupational health and safety does not exempt the holder from sitting the Manager level Health & Safety Test. Has anybody sat this test?? if so what is the content? and by the sounds of it do we need to study for weeks?? Thanks Kenny

Posted By steviezenga Kenny Well documented previously in posting from Keith Williams on 20.05.04. It's a money-making scam which is why other quals. don't count. You will need to study for minutes rather than weeks! cheers Steve

Posted By Lewis T Roberts Kenny, I you think the CSCS test is a waste of time try the FAS in Ireland. Now that is a money making scam as it is legislative requirement. I went to sleep after the first 20 minutes when the trainer didn't know what sound or vibration was measured in. Woke up at 4:30 did the test in less than 10 minutes, paid my 125 Euros an left. Now I've got my card I can go on all the construction sites more safely. Lew

Posted By Dave Wilson Its not just CSCS but other industries are introducing ther own, Petrochemical, food manufacturing etc and if you dont have the Safety 'passport' for that industry then you dont get on site. Some of our people have half a dozen of these and having one doesnt exempt from the other. some H&S consultants / trainers are making a mint at this!!!!

Posted By John Murgatroyd Cheer up. I know one guy who cannot even put his own safety harness on...and he passed it easily. Last time it was checked, there were over 100 people scamming a career in CSCS.

Posted By Ciaran McAleenan Dear all, Its time the various professions and skilled practitioners started to say no to the dumbing down of H&S competency. In the past number of months various professional bodies have discussed and invariably appeared to have bowed to the CSCS pressure. This is regardless of the obvious argument that a professionally qualified civil engineer (example only - there are aother professions) will not have been considered competent to practice unless this included an ability to design and construct safely. In the years that this forum has been in existence a recurring theme has been the competence of the safety professional. Is the profession to be held hostage to the CSCS fortune? I have reposted my response to an earlier discussion on this topic [June 2004]; "The debate about cards (CSCS or otherwise) has missed the point and can only serve to be detrimental to H&S on construction if the focus is not shifted back to competence where it truly belongs. Cards, passports etc may have their place but only within a structured competence development plan. For whatever reasons the Government in the South of Ireland put a requirements for Safe Pass cards [CSCS equivalent] into their construction safety legislation. To achieve this you undertake a one-day general H&S course and pass a simple test. Any client or employer worth their salt would ask for much more than this when employing a competent contractor/ worker. In NI and in UK there is an equivalent CSR/ CSCS card but thankfully there is no mandatory requirement to have this. What there is a need for and this has been enshrined in law for a very long time is the need to have workers trained and competent in the skills areas that they are required to demonstrate and in the control measures relating to the particular hazards associated with the tasks that they will perform. In NI the Government/ Public Sector clients will be requiring evidence of this by December 2004. For them it is all about competence not cards. I am aware, through various publications that specific groups in UK are asking for CSCS cards for workers and visitors to their sites. The question I have to ask is will this improve safety performance or detract from it? The construction industry, worldwide, could do well by considering the lead given by NI public sector clients and focus the attention away from cards and onto competence." Let us not bow down to this one but rather be prepared to challenge. Regards and best wishes Ciaran

Posted By Adam Jackson The list of circumstances where you can get ths CSCS card without doing the test includes: "You attended a health and safety course before 1st April 2000 and your certificate is not more than two years old when you send in your form". Am I being a bit thick here, or is there no way that 'get out' can apply to anyone?? If you did your course before 2000 then your certificate is going to be more than 2 years old, and if its less than 2 years old you must have done the course after this cut-off date?

Posted By John Murgatroyd The CSCS "thing" is probably very nice, for those earning a living in the scam. I suggest that the CSCS csars take a look at their own accident, injury and death stats. Since the CSCS is universally not used on small sites it seems that it will not have much effect on accidents, which is where the majority happen. If you want a laugh, log-onto their site and look at the thousands of trades covered. I chose to not bother with it...you have to produce all the paperwork for your trade and training....for someone who's been "out of school" for over 30 years, and for who the C&G no longer keep certificates to get copies of, it would be an uphill job...easier to not go on site anymore...but, since EVERYONE who works on ANY site or, soon, whose WORK goes ONTO a site (ie: a carpenter who makes items but doesn't go onto site)will soon have to have a ticket it seems that I may just retire to stacking tesco shelves...it's MUCH less bother.

Posted By Kenny McGillivray Hi all Thanks to all who responded. I have my test date organised and have read the book. The application process and paperwork will undobtedly put off a lot of good operatives who shy clear of paperwork and tests!! Shame it has turned into a shambles but maybe IOSH will advise the authors of the scheme. Thanks again Kenny

Posted By ian mcnally YES YES & YES ..COULD WE CHANGE THINGS? There have been other threads on CSCS and still almost 100% of those responding or commenting feel the scheme is a rip off providing little value and in no way demonstrates competence. I agree with most of the comments and feel so frustrated by the whole thing. I have been told by a number of safety people I am wasting my time trying to do generate interest in another sensible scheme but I haven’t just given up ....well not yet anyway! I have put a Safety Passport Scheme together based on HSE guidelines, it is very straightforward and I will be more than happy to let anyone else have the format and some sample questions. I discussed it with IOSH some weeks ago who are prepared to assess it’s content and viability just as soon as I send off the completed application. (next week ) Last week I completed the second sample course to a mix of construction and maintenance operatives. It was well received and the pass mark needed was 70%. Everyone passed although some only just. Today a common buzzword it “Partnering” I’ll say no more about that, but my company will actually be providing the training FOC to all directly employed operatives and regular core contractors although the latter will have to pay the administration costs. The hope is that IOSH will be able to administer the scheme for under £20 per head so it shouldn’t be too much of a burden, it will be based on sufficient numbers making it viable of course. We are hopeful IOSH will provide accreditation so the card will be able to demonstrate the cardholder has a reasonable level of safety awareness. I imagine the scheme will be of little interest to contractors working for MGC. This may be of little consequence since there are many contractors and clients that still have little to do with MGC but still need to demonstrate competence. If you are interested in seeing an accredited alternative to CSCS please just email me so I can advise IOSH of the interest. By taking a pro-active stand we may just be able to change the way things are, lets face it they can’t get too much worse. Your comments and or support will be most helpful. Thanks Ian

Posted By Merv Newman I really think that iosh should take an official look or at least a position on these (not) cheap qualifications - or at least protest at the belittlement of other equally good, even demonstrably superior, trainings and qualifications. The only decent scheme I ever came across was when auditing shell chemicals in the south of france. All contractor COMPANIES in the region were required to demonstrate existance of safety policies and procedures, professional qualifications of employees, safety training. The answers were subject to random auditing. Qualified companies could then tender to any other chemical company in the region and to sister sites anywhere in france. The biggest site I worked on for shell counted about 1200 people on site every day (about 50/50 employees and contractors) The main safety notice board at the entrance made no difference between employees and contractors - at the time it said "Number of days since last LTI on site" I think they had clocked up nearly three years at zero until someone twisted his ankle on a stairway. One last point, while I'm rabbiting - 15 years as a consultant, no one has ever asked me to prove my qualifications, nor done a risk assessment of probable exposure to injury while on their premises, I've never been asked to submit to a safety induction, whatever. It's a point I always bring up when reporting to the board "I'm a contractor. Why don't your contractor safety procedures apply to me ?" The most usual answer, often given with a small chuckle is : "Merv, your a consultant. We trust you"

Posted By Stuart Nagle Merv. I am glad you have raised the issue of IOSH taking this matter up. As 'The' professional H&S body it surely should be representing the interests of members in this issue and taking this matter further, through lobbying and direct intervention with the construction industry generally. There is a hole in this though, as I understand that IOSH was marketing, or test marketing it's own version of a 'passport' to compete with the others (of which there are quite a few) in industry. Far be it for me to say that IOSH was also trying jumping on the passport bandwaggon where a niche in the market had been spotted, by making available yet another 'passport' scheme... Seriously though, this should be taken up, although I can hear the accusations now of 'vested interest' if IOSH was to do this - especially if marketing a passport scheme of its own at the time. This would need some careful review by the powers that be to ensure that the interests of the industry and IOSH members were equally and properly served in a scheme that was beyond reproach and theoretically sound, so it could not be measured as another hurdle or scam... Stuart

Posted By Dave Wilson In asbestos we have guys who are CSCS, Railways, SPA for Petro plants a and Forecourts, Food manufacturing, mines & quarries if we have to do any more of yhese 'Safety coursees' then we will have people with bad backs from the weight of the badges around ther necks. Winge coming up, why oh why do all these differing pasport schemes not allow recognition of other passport schemes. 2 day for working on Garages which is only general safety and have to add on another day for Safety on Fore courts, its a scam by Consultant Training provders to make spondoolicks and to top things off the Ba*****s make you re qualify to make more dosh. Now if IOSH start their own then where are we going with this?????????????????????? some companies cannot afford the time to have 30 guys a year taking 10 days off to sit through the samme old crap and death by viewfoil from a retired H&S consultant making a few quid on the side, dont even have the nonce to use ppt.

Posted By Brian Edward Harkin With your present qualifications you should easily achieve 100%. Merry Xmas from Janet and John