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#1 Posted : 23 November 2004 10:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Weiland
Hi I've hit a tricky pickle I used to work in a Supermarket where we had Ice machine for first aid cold packs. Now I'm in a Factory where one of First Aiders has asked me why we have no cold compress packs - I enquired about chemical packs which give cold tempreture and was told law says we don't need them.

I am unsure why - can anyone shed any light on this ?

Cheers
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#2 Posted : 23 November 2004 11:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kate Graham
Because you can just use normal ice if you have a fridge with a freezer drawer - it's a good idea to keep some ice cubes in there. Last time I needed an ice pack I used the frost scraped out from the freezer drawer, put into a plastic bag and then a piece of cloth - having sent somebody else to go and fetch all these items.
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#3 Posted : 23 November 2004 11:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By stuart cross
Hi

do a risk assessment and decide if your first aiders are trained to use ice packs. We have them in our first aid kits but we also have nursing staff on site.

As a first aider I think that ice packs are almost essential if you have a high to medium risk of sprains and strains

stuart
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#4 Posted : 23 November 2004 11:08:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kate Graham
Ice packs are on the First Aid at Work syllabus and first aiders are trained in making their own ice packs from whatever they can find such as a bag of frozen peas. (But do a risk assessment of the peas being eaten.)
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#5 Posted : 23 November 2004 11:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By Graham Rollett
The contents of your first aid kits should be based an assessment of needs. The starting point is the list provided as guidance by the HSE but employers can vary this as may be necessary for their particular situation.

The law to be complied with is the Health & Safety (First Aid) Regulations 1991.

Liquid Ice packs can be purchased from St. John Supplies tel: 020 7837 1642.
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#6 Posted : 23 November 2004 11:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mark B
Robert,

I do not think ice packs are on the list of minimum contents of a first aid box. This probably goes back to the days before these chemical packs became available and many sites would not have access to ice. I would forget about minimum legal standards and follow best practice i.e. if there is a need for ice packs, provide them, as the cost is next to nothing.
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#7 Posted : 23 November 2004 11:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Weiland
Thanks for the quick reply - I just wanted to check from the experts rather than one or two managers who are trying hardest to get one up on me so to speak.

As we have no freezer on site and due to size we will need to get chemical ones in. Working in a Supermarket it was strange as ice seemed to be the b-all and end-all of all medications. Slip apply an ice pack, bang to head - ice pack, cut finger ice pack I kid you not.

Supermarkets seem to have different ideas, oh how I miss the days of a mangers applying Ice and holding it onto an employee's leg without any care.

Cheers for your help everyone.
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#8 Posted : 23 November 2004 12:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Katie Hoyland
If its of any help, petit pois actually make better ice pack medium than conventional garden peas due to increased maleability. Minted peas have a higher freeze/ lower melting point than petit pois so ,please be aware in an emergency.
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#9 Posted : 23 November 2004 12:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
Interesting to note that when you worked in a supermarket you had an icemaking machine.

As Katie indicates, packs of frozen peas, straight out of the freezer are a good idea. My wife works in a supermarket, and this is exactly what they do if a cold compress is required.

So... stick a couple of packs in your freezer at work...would appear to be a lot cheaper!!

Stuart
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#10 Posted : 23 November 2004 12:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By stuart cross
Robert

interesting thread but no one seems to notice you do not have a freezer so the differences in peas ice etc are not relevant.

Sorry to be a kill joy folks but Robert needs chemical ice packs and to ensure his first aiders know how to use them
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#11 Posted : 23 November 2004 12:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By Gareth Bryan
Ignoring Katie's remarks on choice of frozen food, it is worth remembering that such items should be first wrapped in a towel or something similar to avoid frost burns.
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#12 Posted : 23 November 2004 12:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Shaun Ingram
Robert ,

A company I previously used to work for supply such ice packs at very reasonable prices.

They can be contacted on 01952 565656

Dynamed UK Ltd
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#13 Posted : 23 November 2004 13:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Kate Graham
I agree that as no freezer is available then an alternative to ice is needed - but it must be very unusual to have a workplace with no fridge for milk etc. which would normally have a freezer compartment.
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#14 Posted : 23 November 2004 13:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Katie Hoyland
We only employ adults as first aiders as a rule. First Aid kids seem like an unneccessary risk.
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#15 Posted : 23 November 2004 13:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By fats van den raad
Kate
Not everybody have access to such luxuries!!!
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#16 Posted : 23 November 2004 18:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert Weiland
We have fridges a plenty - but no real freezers. As said the size of the site means I would rather have several chemical ones in place.

As for Ice machine in a Supermarket - Fresh Fish counters have them. I was working on Frozen foods for many years so had ice a plenty.

As for advice on frozen peas Katie cheers but somewhere deep down, a male email address posting as a female strikes me that deep down somewhere you also may be offering make up advice.

Cheers everyone for the advice I will look into tomorrow.
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#17 Posted : 23 November 2004 22:34:00(UTC)
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Posted By david cairns
once you had finished with the peas? did they go back on sale, as seconded hand goods?
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#18 Posted : 24 November 2004 10:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
Robert.

Buy a very small freezer. They are so cheap now that in the long term this has to be cost saving over expensive first aid items and can be used for other goodies to, that will be appreciated by staff

David.

My wife says "no" they throw the used bags of peas away and have a special code to enter on the stock list - now thats planning eh!!

Stuart
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#19 Posted : 24 November 2004 15:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By Michael Hayward
Hi
The First aid at work regs stipulate what should be in a first aid box. Other equipment may be stored separately but only if a first aider is trained to use it
If you want to use an ice pack, follow the guidance in the 8th edition first aid manual i.e partly fill a plastic bag with small ice cubes, or crushed ice, wrap the bag in a dry cloth and apply for 10 minutes
To prevent cold injuries always wrap an ice pack in a cloth - do not use for more than 10 minutes at one application - NEVER use dry ice.

Mick hayward H&S Co-ordinator St John Ambulance
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#20 Posted : 24 November 2004 15:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jim Walker
Is there a chance that the 9th edition might be updates to include minted peas?
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#21 Posted : 25 November 2004 16:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By George Wedgwood
Thanks at last to Mick for some sensible advice - please refer to experts for advice on the treatment of burns! For example BUPA offer no advice on the application of 'ice packs' - clearly, if the burn is superficial then pain is worst and comfort will be achieved from the cooling effect of a cool pack - however, the advice is that cold water is sufficient! If the burn could be partial or full thickness, then ice may actually exacerbate the injury as full sensation may be dulled - only hospital treatment is best in that case.

Anyway, if you give the casualty some nice peas, could that be interpreted as benefit in kind?

(see below from BUPA http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/burns.html)

Burns
Published by BUPA's Health Information Team
December, 2002
Download this factsheet

A burn is damage to the skin’s tissues, usually caused by excessive heat. Recognising different types of burns and having a basic knowledge of how to treat them can minimise injury and prevent fatalities.

Burning
Heat is the most obvious cause of burn injuries. This can be direct contact with fires, radiators or hot liquids, but also the radiated heat from an extreme source of heat, such as a furnace or open fire. Burns can also be caused by chemicals, electricity, the sun’s rays, friction (rubbing or chafing) or extreme cold.

Burns usually affect the skin, but other important areas of the body can also be injured. For example, the airways and lungs can be damaged as a result of inhaling hot fumes and gases.

Types of burn
The severity of a burn depends on how deeply it has affected the tissue. There are three categories of burn: superficial, partial thickness and full thickness. These were previously referred to as first, second and third-degree burns.

Superficial burn
This is a burn that only affects the surface of the skin. The skin appears red and slightly swollen and the burn is almost always painful. A common cause of this type of burn is too much exposure to sunlight.

Partial thickness burn
This is a deeper skin burn, but it does not affect the whole depth of the skin. The skin appears deep red or purple, swollen and blistered. The surface may have a weeping, wet appearance. The skin is extremely painful and hypersensitive, even to air movement.

Full thickness burn
The full depth of the skin is damaged and the skin appears dry and leathery. The skin may be pale or blackened. These burns are surprisingly painless, because the nerve endings within the skin are also destroyed.

Other burn sites
Burns to the face, singeing of eyebrows or nasal hair and black deposits in the mouth or sputum indicate that the airways may be burnt and immediate medical attention should be sought.

What to do if someone is burnt
Personal safety should be the first priority of anyone offering first-aid to a person with burns. It is important to be aware of any ongoing risks of fire, chemicals, or electricity. There may also be risk of toxic fumes or explosion e.g. due to nearby petrol or gas supply.

The next step is to stop the burning process. Any clothing that is not stuck to the burn should be carefully removed. The affected body surface areas should then be flooded with cold water until medical help, if necessary, is available.

The skin usually swells after a burn so it is important to remove anything constricting such as jewellery.

Do not attempt to burst any blisters that form on burnt skin.

If a burn has been caused by a chemical, the chemical should be removed, by brushing it away if it is a dry powder, or flooding with large amounts of cold water.

Home treatment
Very minor burns can be treated at home. Superficial burns usually don't need any dressings. Moisturising, after-sun or calamine lotions can ease some of the discomfort. Simple painkillers, such as paracetamol or ibuprofen, may also help. Superficial burns usually settle in a matter of days, perhaps with a little skin peeling.

When to seek medical help
Medical help is needed:

For all partial and full thickness burns,
For superficial burns covering an area larger than the palm of the hand,
For burns on the face, hands or in the groin,
Where there is any doubt about the extent of the burn or how to deal with it.
For severe burns call 999 (UK only) and ask for an ambulance. While waiting for specialist help, valuable treatment can still be given as described above.

Hospital treatment
At the hospital, doctors will continue first-aid measures and protect the damaged skin with dressings.

Healthy skin prevents loss of fluid from the tissues underneath and is also a very effective barrier to infection. These functions are lost when the skin is burned. After severe burns, large quantities of fluid can be lost through the skin. This can have a serious affect on the heart and circulation. This is why people with serious burns need to be closely monitored and often require intravenous fluids to help their circulation.

People with severe burns need to be cared for in specialist burns units where other specialist treatments can be given to help look after them.

Burns may become infected because the skin is less able to protect itself from infection by bacteria. That is why more serious burns need to be dressed and kept clean to help prevent this whilst the skin heals. If infection is suspected, treatment with antibiotics may be needed.

Recovering from burns
The time taken for burns to heal depends on how serious they are. Most superficial burns heal within about two weeks and do not usually leave a scar.

Deeper burns take longer to heal and sometimes require skin grafts. This is a plastic surgery technique using skin from an unaffected part of the body to repair an injured area of skin that is not going to be able to heal itself. Full thickness burns tend to result in scars that can be difficult to treat. Specialist treatment by plastic surgeons in these cases is aimed at minimising such scars.

Other types of treatment or support may be required as part of rehabilitation after burns. Physiotherapy can help restore movement to burnt areas, especially the hands. Advice on how to apply specialist products for camouflaging scars is available from volunteers in some dermatology departments - contact your local Red Cross branch for details. Psychological treatments such as counselling can help people who have been burnt to come to terms with having been in an accident or with any serious changes to their appearance.

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