Posted By Liam Nolan Hi A problem has been brought to my attention today (as company Safety Advisor), that one of our employees has very little personal hygiene, in other words, to be blunt, he smells. He works off site sometimes and shares a van with another operator, though, when he does work at the main office (on the shop floor - he is an apprentice) the other employees are 'offended' by the body odour emminating from him. I remember seeing something about this somewhere, but can't remember where it was. The Personnel Manager has already discussed the issue with the individual, but there was no improvement to the situation. The Company doctor has been consulted and has said that the issue is not a medical one - the individual just does not wash. Outside of the BO issue, I can see other issues such as hygiene issues in the canteen (and how it affects the other employees), Toilet facilities, etc. To compound the problem, our work is in the sewage treatment sector, where hygiene issues for our employees are at the forefront. If the individual is not washing (and the same goes for his clothes) he is also contaminated with sewage. There have been complaints from his co-workers on this issue. Any comments or pointer in the right direction (especially related to Ireland) would be gratefully appriciated. Of course I understand that this situation will have to be handled carefully and with due consideration to the individual concerned. Regards, Liam

Posted By Jennifer Kelly I know this is a serious issue which needs to be dealt with carefully but couldn't resist posting an account of how my manager, Mr Subtle as a Seldgehammer, dealt with a similar problem. New member of staff starts, young, innocent, first job etc - very bad BO. We put up with it for 4 weeks but then summer starts and the air conditioning fails. One particularly bad day said manager looses the plot turns round to new member of staff and screams - "that's it I can't take it any more - do you realise you (finger pointed very accusingly) f***ing stink! Do you know what a bl**din shower and deodorant is, sort it out or I'll do wot we did in the army for blokes like you!!!!" Proceed to graphic account of army procedures for dealing with BO and rest of team pretending to be deep in their work but secretly relieved that something had been said, albeit somewhat crudely. Having said that the offender smelt of roses for the rest of the time he was in our team -although he is now on site full time where the problem seems to have returned and the site guys are now threating to carry out the army procedure. ahhhhh the construction industry... Regards Jennifer

Posted By fats van den raad Jennifer Any source of cold water will do!! I've seen this done once in the army (One of the guys in adjacent barracks) and you wont believe how harsh a bogbrush can be on the skin. Add the Jayes fluid to the raw skin and you can imagine how it stings.!! Saying that, dirty little bleeder showered three times a day from that day on and turned out to be a model of hygiene and cleanliness..... Come to think of it, I seem to remeber he became quite obsessive about hygiene... seeing germs everywhere.......

Posted By Linda Crossland-Clarke Hi Tell him there is an email for him on the office PC and paste this link in!! Linda

Posted By Stuart Nagle Liam. Fats is right concerning looking after hygiene in the sewage industry, and in respect of military barrack room action. As someone who has had experience of both, I know the nettle is sometimes hard to grasp, but this chap has be told - in no uncertain terms what is expected of him. I take it that your site has all the usual facilities, outlined by Fats above... so get the guy to use them. I fully understand the other guys getting peed with someone who contaminates their clean environment - it is not nice and can spear all sorts of nasties about. Work clothing: Are there no arrangements for this to be laundered by the company? Why is this chap continually wearing soiled clothing to work in? Whilst I hate to say it... If the other guys on site do decide to give him a hot tub, scrub and a rub, they and your company could find themselves in hot water (as opposed to cold) nowadays, so despite personnel talking to him, perhaps he needs a little more 'incentive' by way of a not so friendly talking to. Although it was mentioned above as having been done ... and was not exacly PC, the short sharp shock is sometimes exactly what is required. Lastly, of course, there are those of us who do suffer from sweaty body odor, that is seems no amount of spray-can smellies can swage... and doing dirty strenuous work does not help... The only remidy is plenty of hot showers, shampoo, soap and smellies and plenty of clean working gear to get changed into. Seems to me you're going to have to bite the bullet here!!! Stuart

Posted By Liam Nolan Hi, Some clarification. The individual does not work on a sewage treatment plant full time, occasionally he visits one or a pumping station to remove equipment for repair. There are numerous considerations to consider as this is not the dark ages, namely, we (the company) do not want what some of you refer to has 'barrack room action' to take place for the following reason - 1. it could spark a alligation of Bullying, which would make an unfortunate situation worse and place the companies position on trying to solve the problem sensitively as a secondary issue (as ultimatly the individual could end up dismissed if he does not improve his own situation). 2. As you are all aware allowing horseplay is totaly against most companies policy from a H&S point of view. Therefore the company cannot turn around and quitly tell the lads 'take him out the back and give him a srub.' The individual has still got rights. 3. The individual's work mates have take the right course of action in reporting to Personnel on the issue. They expect the company to deal with it, and rightly so. The work mates are not going to expose themselves to charges (more than likely criminal charges) of assualt, which is what would happen if they took matters in their own hands. As I mentioned in my initial post, the company has recieved the complaints on the subject, the Personnel Manager has already discussed the problem with the individual, but this resulted in no improvement. We are now looking for the next step to take, i.e. do we talk to the individual again? Is it best practice to give him another chance but spell out the likely outcome of no improvement (eventual dismissal)? do we issue a verbal warning right now? etc. Is there a code of practice on the subject? (what I was looking for initially from my first post). Quite frankly, advising me to have the lads take him out and do it for him because thats what we did in the army, shocks me from a Safety Advisors point of view. I assume that most, if not all, of you replying are practicing Safety Advisors? If you had this situation in the work place (not the millitary) would you take the same action? Some of you have suggested that the direct approach from co-workers or a hugh hint (like a bar of soap) should be tried. Well I'm only after being informed of the situation so I don't know if this had been tried by his fellow workers. Anyway, now that the Management has been officially informed a constructive and dignified approach has to be taken to solve the problem. There are other issue that must also be considered, if the situation is not dealt with correctly and above board and the individual is eventually dismissed, then charges of unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal may be considered by him. We have unfair dismissal laws here (in Ireland) as I'm sure you have in your relevent countries. So please anyone got a Code of Practice on dealing with this situation? Liam

Posted By J Knight Hi Liam, I actually don't really understand why this has been 'gifted' to you as an H&S issue. Since there is no risk to either health or safety, I would see this as work conduct issue, and would expect it to be a fair and square personnel thing. It's more like turning up to work inappropriately dressed, surely, rather than running around waving a hammer or wedging a guard open? In other words, yes, I agree entirely that a dignified approach is needed, and horseplay or bullying isn't the solution, but I would pass this buck as quickly as possible, John

Posted By J Knight Granted, safety is much more about human factors and behaviours than it used to be, but essentially it remains a discipline concerned with risk awareness and control and injury and ill-health reduction. So although the boundaries between (pure) HR & (pure) H&S are flexible, this flexibility is surely more about us guiding HR in creating the conditions which make safe, efficient work rewarding and practicable, while HR guides us in ensuring that what we do helps create a positive culture in the workplace. Of course in some cases we are both HR & H&S, but the two disciplines are still not the same. Whether somebody smells or not is still an HR issue in my book, and it's really not one that I feel would be within my knowledge or experience to manage. Pass it on, John

Posted By Nigel Hammond I don't know your management structure. If this was at my work, my first thought would be; What about the person's line manager? Isn't it the line manager's job to follow the disciplinary route if other approaches fail. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious but isn't it like any other disciplinary procedure - initial verbal warning, then written warning etc...? I know this is easier said than done because the whole thing is awkward and embarrasing - far easier for the line manager to refer it to H&S or HR - but that is shying away from sorting out the problem.

Posted By John Allen It is interesting to see that so many people are sitting in their ivory towers with their heads in the sand (or indeed with their heads stuck up something else!). We are (or should be) H&S Managers. The most important and difficult part of our remit is the final word in the title. Anyone who is not prepared to roll their sleeves up and tackle problems won’t be part of the management team for long. Ignoring any problem which doesn’t fit into neat discipline boundaries won’t make it go away (and probably does more to get us a bad name than anything else). People’s first reaction to smells, whether they come from the drains, something they work with, or another person, is that they are a health problem. I agree this isn’t entirely an H&S issue but isn’t entirely an HR one either. What if the person concerned is a contractor? Is it Contracts Department responsibility to sort it out then? The issue requires a cross boundary approach at the very least. A fellow professional is asking for help and all we do is fire off stories about scrubbing people in troughs or worse say it’s not our responsibility. You aren’t paid for the easy jobs – you’re paid for the difficult ones that don't fit into neat boxes, or you shouldn’t be paid at all!

Posted By PaulA John... I couldn't agree more by your statement that we are not there to do an easy job.... but then why make the job even harder by 'pussy footing' around issues... Management is in place and has the responsibility to tell the individual concerned that there is a problem with his/her hygiene standards. Obviously if the H&S manager bags the job then he/she should use the best skill learnt by all H&S professionals... tact and diplomacy using developed inter-personal skills to tell the individual. OR.. a chat perhaps by a friend/colleague will be far better received by the offender than written/public warnings. In the Services we are expected to keep personal hygiene standards and do so at both Zero arctic temperatures and +60 in the Gulf. You would expect a work colleague to give you a heads up should you fall short of the socially expected. Everybody has different body odours and levels of 'scents', but a lot of people that do smell at work would rather be told by a mate than management... Some issues are emotive and they are not easy to deal with but just call for those extra skills that H&S professional may qualify themselves with… Regards Paul

Posted By Liam Nolan Hi, Thanks for all the constructive replys since my last post. I find myself agreeing with all of them. My initial reaction when I was asked to advise on the issue was that it was a HR problem, however I said I would check it out with you guys (and gals) to be sure (I have also asked local experts as well). It was passed to me because the company Doctor told the HR manager that he should talk to the Safety Officer (me). Someone mentioned management structure, I don't have the time nor do you, for me to try to detail it. Anyway I have to 'work the system' in place. I will be handing it back to HR, even though there are some (dare I say) peripheral H&S issues. I am not disregarding these H&S issues just to duck having to deal directly with the issue, rather I don't have the authority to start disiplanary action - thats HR (there must be some coersion in order to try to show the serious view the company is taking, and this unfortunatly is probably disiplanary action - remember I mention the individual has already been spoken to on this issue). Also, you will agree with me (I hope) when I say HR people are (or should be) trained to deal with people, that's their job after all. I would suspect you have guessed our HR manager is trying to evade the issue as well. I have already told the HR manager my intial reaction (the canteen & toilet sharing) on the H&S aspects that I could see. Another poster mention about the individuals personal life. Yes this occured to me as well. He comes from a farming background, and while I don't have any details on his home conditions, then possible the facilities at home may not be great. He may not have both parents alive and (here I may be accused of being sexist, sorry) possible his mother may not have the facilities to wash clothes every day, it could be his up bringing that his work clothes should last him the week. etc. I have always been thought (with regard to H&S) that care does not end at 5 o'clock, the physical effects of a persons work may extend to other times and areas of his life and these have to be taken into consideration. As mentioned before in this thread, there does not seem to be a COP on this issue, and from the posts in this thread, there seems to be losts of this type of situation in the workplace. Maybe the powers that be (in HR or Buisness end of things not H&S) have procedures to deal with occurances. Again thanks for the replies. Liam

Posted By Jennifer Kelly Liam, If there is a family breakdown, ie Mother, (how dare she) may be working and has obviously not got her priorities right in not sorting out her son's washing then HR may be able to recommend a short course in how to switch on a washing machine for this young lad. Failing tha if the family situation is that dire then I suggest a call to Social Services may help. Regards Jennifer

Posted By Eric Burt Liam In your posting you have stated that the Personel Manager has been dealing with this individual. If I were you I would leave it at that. The Personnel Officer will know the Employment Law relating to constructive dismissal i.e. if this employee feels he is being treated in such a way that he has no option but to leave, then the company may find itself facing a constructive dismissal claim. You may also want to check out the Data Protection Act. Publishing personal details which can identify an individual and then speculating about their background etc on a public forum is not exactly the best course of action. Eric

Posted By David J Bristow Hi Liam What is required here is a subtle approach perhaps from a female member of staff that might be seen as a matriarch and someone the person might take notice off. When I was in the army many years ago we were called to the parade ground, when we were all in line and standing to attention the sergeant major whispered into the ear of the corporal. The corporal then screamed Jones your mothers dead, with that the young lad fainted. Six moths later we were called to the parade ground, when we were all in line and standing to attention the sergeant major whispered into the ear of the corporal. The corporal asked all those with fathers to step forward – we did but then the corporal screamed “Jones were are you going”. The old ones are the best eh. A difficult subject to broach, perhaps as it is nearing Christmas a hamper of deodorant might do the trick. All have a good one. Regards David B