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Posted By Sylvia Tyler
I have been advised, whilst reviewing a risk assessment for a school premise that it is a common occurrence (out of school hours)for young persons in the area to access the flat roof of the building, putting themselves at risk of falling from a 2 storey building.
The premises has a pallisade boundary gate/fence of 2metres, anticlimb paint has been used. The cost of replacing the fence to 2.5/3metres would be considerable, extending the fence height might be an alternative.
I would appreciate any feedback on additional "low cost" controls that we could introduce - also your views on whether if it is known young persons are accessing the roof top and they fall killing/maiming themselves would the fact that we have not put edge protection in place despite knowing the history mean the managers of the school have been negligent -afterall the tresspassers are not at work
There is CCTV, security lighting, the police don't bother turning up anymore. The residents are helpful as they contact the security\permises manger if they see someone on the roof, that's how we know it's a frequent occurrence!
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Posted By John Johnston Hey Sylvia, Not much input other than a website that may be just what you are looking for..... http://www.thecaretakers.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgiThe Caretakers' forums are full of school caretakers (obviously) who have vast experience in exactly this type of thing. Maybe you could go along and ask them a few questions, I'm sure they will be only too glad to help. Hope this helps, John
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Posted By Heather Aston
Sylvia
I advise a local school where we had exactly the same problem except that ours was a pitched roof!
I don't think you would necessarily be held negligent for not fixing edge protection, but as you are aware of the risk you must definitely be seen to be doing something.
How are the kids getting onto the roof? In our case it was via the cast iron downpipes. We painted these with the anticlimb paint - this had an almost immediate effect.
Secondly we introduced a security patrol - this was especially useful during the holidays when the majority of the problms occurred. Although it was not cheap, we felt it was worth the expense compared with the ongoing cost of repairing the damage the school had started to suffer - our problem had escalated into vandalism and it was only a matter of time before arson resulted.
Once the local kids got to know that the patrols might be round at any time of day or night and relised what a mess the anti-climb paint made, they went elsewhere.
It might also be worth talking to the local community policeman - I'm not surprised you can't get them to come when called if they are as short staffed as in our area - but you might be able to get them to come by on a regular patrol visit with a police car - this worked for us.
Good luck
Heather
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Posted By Danny Swygart
Have you got any warning signs on display at potential access points to the roof?
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Posted By Neil Pearson
This is what's called "occupier's liability", and it's the reason railway operators keep getting in trouble when kids find a gap in a fence and get killed running across tracks. You have to take resonable steps to protect anyone you can reasonably foresee being on a site you occupy. You're right to question exactly what steps are reasonable, but trespassers definitely must be protected. Apparently this is partly why many shops have lights left on overnight - in case people break in, trip over something and sue the shopkeeper. It's a mad world, but there you go. My feeling is that the edge protection is needed if you know there's a danger of trespassers falling.
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Posted By Heather Aston
Having read the House of Lords judgement (very interesting Tony thanks) I am even more of the opinion that the first obligation is to try to prevent your trespassers getting into the danger area in the first place rather than stopping them coming to harm once they've got into the danger area. If they can climb over a 2 m gate then roof edge protection isn't going to stop them is it?
Your secondary risk of vandalism and/or arson would also be addressed by the security patrols.
Heather
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Posted By Sylvia Tyler
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas.
Heather, I was thinking of the edge protection to prevent them from falling once on the roof not preventing them from accessing it.
I will be using a little bit of everyones comments - it is just difficult convincing managers that they should take some action!!
Sylvia
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Posted By Heather Aston
Sylvia
I realise what you were expecting the edge protection to do - but my point was do you think they wouldn't climb over it or on it or break it down if the mood took them once they were on the roof?
They might even see it as a challenege to balance on top of the rail. Sounds silly I know but then trespassers like these aren't very sensible.
I would still concentrate on stopping them getting up there in the first place.
Heather
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Posted By Eric Burt
Sylvia
If you know children are getting onto your roof, then make sure your sky-lights are protected. There have been cases where children have fallen through them and injured themselves.
Eric
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Posted By Ian Laber
Sylvia
You might want to look at the potential injuries when trespassers try to climb 2 metre high pallisade fences. We recently had a young lad lose a finger when he got it caught in the wedge shaped aperture between the spikes.
As with all security fencing you should inspect it regularly, record that you have done so and deal promptly with any defects that are found.
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Posted By Stevie
Sylvia,
We had a case a couple of years back where a young lad fell from a school roof (easy access)and was injured. Following an HSE visit our local authority was 'advised' that we should carry out assessments of all our properties and determine what control measures were appropriate to prevent similar incidents.
To address this we developed an assessment matrix that helped determine action to be taken...the assessment was based on a variety of factors: e.g: accessibilty, location of building, history of unauthorised access, etc. and on completion we were able to prioritise the action necessary.
Although 'anti-climb paint' was a control option we considered we were advised that it could only be applied above a certain height (3m I think) so the local 'anti climb guard manufacturers' had a field day !!!
Stevie
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Posted By J Knight
Hi Folks,
Although it's slightly off the specifics of this topic, don't forget the implications of Tomlinson v Congleton MBC in cases involving trespass. The High Court effectively ruled that where a public amenity is concerned there shouldn't be restrictions imposed which are detrimental to the amenity for the sake of preventing injury to reckless trespassers.
Access to a school roof isn't a question of public amenity, but there have been some lower court judgements since Tomlinson which have been much less favourable to an injured trespasser than had been the case prior to that judgement,
John
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Posted By Tony Gibbs
Sylvia, here,s another verygood website. scroll down and look at the tomlinson v congleton mbc case as mentioned earlier.
Its a heavy read but interesting .
Tony
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Posted By Jason Touraine
Apart from Stevie, everyone seems to have referred to potential civil action. The HSE can (and indeed has) taken enforcement action where trespassers (especially children) have fallen from the roof of school buildings.
Actually, I'm not even sure why any of us are concentrating on the law. Surely, if you know children are getting on to a 2 storey roof you would want to do something about it because they might get hurt?
I would start by looking at the building and see how they are gaining access. Someone has already mentioned drain pipes. There could be other building features which help them gain access eg porches, a single storey section of flat roof, walls and fences abutting the building, adjacent sheds and garages, anything handy which can be used (such as those big rubbish bins on wheels - secure them away from the building; contractors materials). The solutions depend on circumstances. Climb resistant paint has been mentioned. In other instances it may be necessary to alter or even remove the features
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