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#1 Posted : 01 February 2005 13:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Anthony Morrison
Am I the only person who finds that if you don’t have a NEBOSH Certificate some employers / agencies won’t consider you for H&S positions.

I have tried to explain that having MIOSH and a safety degree is better than having a NEBOSH Certificate only. Am I going mad or is there great confusion with regards to safety qualifications.

Why bother with MIOSH, Degrees, Diplomas or anything else if all you need is a NEBOSH Cert

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#2 Posted : 01 February 2005 13:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By ron muir
I too boil when I see this in adverts for inflated salaries of above £30,000 with a car and pension etc etc. Is it not about time that someone put their foot down from IOSH and made sure that a) Employers are aware of the correct qualifications and what they mean and b) The SHP ensure that the correct qualifications fit the jobs and salaries in adverts that appear in their publication.
You will get adverts eventually saying all you need is to have attended an H&S seminar next !!!!!!!!!
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#3 Posted : 01 February 2005 14:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By AGT
Never had the experience myself but I can understand the frustration most employees seem to have a mind set on what qualifications and experience they require, maybe Anthony you should make sure your CV say’s you have the equivalent or better. I’m not sure what IOSH could do ? maybe an advertising campaign but what would it say NEBOSH ain’t worth a carrot, I don’t think so, as for SHP I agree surely they should check the adverts or would this be considered as taking on the role of an agency. Can anyone from SHP respond.
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#4 Posted : 01 February 2005 16:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Anthony,

The experience gets more bizarre when you have to explain what FIOSH RSP means to someone with a NEBOSH certificate. It is even more galling when you have to sit a CSCS test, just because you don’t have a NEBOSH Construction Certificate.

For those with a NEBOSH Certificate, there is a job going for £55,000 plus on page 95 of this months SHP.
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#5 Posted : 01 February 2005 18:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Chris Matthews
With fear of being slaughtered here, I would disagree to a point.

Although there is quite obviously a valid argument, and I respect those that have attained the heights of MIOSH, FIOSH, MIIRSM, FIIRSM etc, etc. and aspire to become MIOSH in the future. Have you seen how many Gen. Cert. holders there are out there desperately seeking their first opportunity each and every day in the careers forum, loads.

The employers may well be confused but dont knock those of us that are working hard to break into this arena, you make it sound as though our efforts and first qualification mean nothing. Some of us have earned what we have through time served and training.

Now to wait for the lions to attack.

Chris
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#6 Posted : 01 February 2005 19:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter Lee
I can sympathise with both sides of the argument, but it does gall when I see adverts that say corporate member of IOSH, Nebosh Certificate minimum.

The 12 day Nebosh Certificate is not and cannot be a qualification for full time Safety Practitioners it is aimed primarily at Safety Reps and Supervisors.

Personally when I did mine I thought it was a lot of hard toil for very little reward as I couldnt get interviews purely on the back of the certificate, so I went on to do the Diploma and I must say alot more doors opened.

Another problem I suspect is that more and more people now have the Nebosh Certificate as its perceived as a golden ticket into Health and Safety (ufortunately it isn't)which means more applicants for all advertised jobs and ultimately more disappointed people.

Regards

PL

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#7 Posted : 01 February 2005 20:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
Ther are many different ideas of what 'being qualified' means, not least in the minds of the employers, many of whom never even bother checking qualifications or references of applicants they employ.

This months SHP is a prime example - so rush off now and check if you want some prime examples. With salaries of up to 40K spotted for persons with NEBOSH certificates...

Now, before the mud starts getting slung, I have no axe to grind on qualification levels, although as most regulars who visit the site will know, I do have views on the subject generally, as I am sure do most people.

What you may find incredible however, is that many of those posts advertised, as mentioned above, are via what claim to be Health and Safety Recruitment Agencies, specialising in the recruitment of health and safety professionals!!

Now am I being thick, or do YOU think that as such they should be in a position to advise their Clients on what levels of qualifications and experience equate with responsibility levels in respect of posts?

There is certainly an element of truth in the views above that employers (and employment agencies) have little if any real insight into health and safety qualifications or the value of experience.

In fact, this may be one of very few 'professions' where age, experience and wisdom are actually beneficial in the job market.... ever thought of that?

As a footnote, CV preperation is another 'skill' that many lack and some of the CV's I have read over the years, even just lately, do not cut the mustard and have been produced purely in a generic manner for mass applications to employers.

I am sure that if people took time an trouble to research what makes a good CV, and presented the right amount and type of information employers want (in respect of particular psitions), in the correct order, and with just the right amount of personal 'executive summary' they would find that a lot more doors get opened for interviews.

Lastly, the interview. Interview technique is another area that lets many very good professionals down badly, getting nervous, not knowing how to use 'body language' not researching the company before interview, although many have very informative web sites, and not dressing up to impress - first impressions still count for a great deal. I always look at shoes and hands first, followed by creases in trousers and the knot in a tie. you will be suprised how much can be gleaned from this about a candidate... truley...

So, heres your list for self improvement:

1) Get to work on researching your CV style

2) ALWAYS create a CV that fits the post for which your applying (the language in the advert may also give you clues - use a similar language as it's obviously the language the employer speaks)

3) Get the items on your CV in the correct manner and the important items on page one, namely:

a) personal details, age or DOB, name, address, contact points etc, status (e.g. Married - 2 children (boy 7, girl 5 years etc)

c) Qualifications: (don't include GCSE's and 'A' levels unless your still young enough to have nothing else) Include all technical courses, even if not H&S related (i.e. BTECH HNC Mechanical Engineering) and give the pass level (Pass Merit Distinction etc).

d) Membership of Profesional Bodies: include all relevant profesional memberships - state that your a 'member' for example 'Member Institution of Occupational Safety and Health' then your date of joining, rather than simply stating MIOSH etc unless you want to! because this may mean little in real terms to the employer!!

e) Executive Summary: Present this in the 'third person' (i.e. as if someone else was taking about you, your experience and attributes. Use simple but descriptive and effective language. Don't be affraid to crib off the person specification for the job and use the same language as they have used if at all possible. You can also finish it with a smidgeon of humour even, such as '..and enjoys the occassional candlelit dinner and bottle of red wine'. This shows your 'human side'

f) Next, your employment history: START WITH YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER FIRST AND WORK BACKWARDS.... most employers prefer this. No more than say 20/25 lines.

(Up to this point you should still be on the first page of your CV - no joking...

For your previous employments, if a 'mature' candidate you should aim not to back more than 10 to 15 years, if younger and not had a lot of posts you could perhaps include them all, but aim to keep the number of previous posts down to say a maximum of 5 (to 7 at most) for most persons, even if they changed jobs every two years or so, this should be more than enough to cover the 10 to 15 year period.

If there are long gaps in employemnt you will habve to state why!! (i.e. travelling and working way around south east asia).

If the gaps are short, say a few weeks, you could cover them by stating the month start date and month finish date rather than actual dates of the months etc...

For the remaining post descriptions, keep it very brief... say a maximum of 4 to 5 lines (if that). you can always embelish if asked about a particular post.

Two nice columns now, one giving the the post title, employer and their address with start and finish date. Do not state reasons for leaving here OK... take my word for it it just is not necessary.

In the second column, state the role, duties and responsibilities. keep it very brief

g) The final thing that needs adding is at least two references. One should be your current or most recent employer. the other should be an employer too if possible, but if not a personal reference mat suffice.

(Always be sure to let those who you are seeking references from know that they may get a letter asking for a reference, unless of course you don't want your current employer to know your considering leaving!!

In this case, state clearly at the interview that you would prefer them do not apply for a reference unless they intend offering you the position. Most won't apply for references until after they offer a post anyway, but it your employer may get indifferent about you because of this, it's always worth letting the propspective new employer know... Don't worry they will understand...

So now you have sorted your CV, please get those shoes polished, learn to tie a knot in a tie, press those trousers, and have a good firm handshake and upright, alert demeanour.

Well done. now your ready for the job market.

Lets hope you all appreicate the benefit of years of experience!!

PS. One last piece of advice. Interviews take practice. make a habbit of going to them regularly, even if you don't want the job. Practice makes perfect.

Stuart
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#8 Posted : 01 February 2005 23:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Sylvia Tyler
It is more annoying when you advertise a position saying TechSP minimum requirement and you get 27 applicants who don't even have a NEBOSH Cert - I know people have to take some chances, but one applicant had worked in a bank as a sales adviser and had no safety experience in any way shape or form. Another had once served on a safety committee.

One person who only had the NEBOSH General Certificate had 10 years of good quality work related safety experience and interviewed excellently, a decision then is should we develop him to TechSP/MIOSH? Another candidate who had MIOSH, 3 years so called practical experience failed to impress and showed less knowledge on safety related matters than the NEBOSH Cert.

So does it matter what the advertisement says - if the salary looks right and the job sounds Ok it seems you just go for it and sometimes you strike lucky!!

We employed the "novice" he has done brilliant, now has TechSP working towards MIOSH - he was so nearly thrown to one side because he didn't have the qualification we thought a person should have!!

Employers do get it wrong - some of the adverts want MIOSH RSP and states a salary like £17-21K - and the role sounds an ideal junior/starting position.

Personnally I blame HR!!

Sylvia



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#9 Posted : 02 February 2005 11:11:00(UTC)
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Posted By Paul Hay
Good point Sylvia.

While it seems that companies often get it very wrong with job advertisements (worrying when some of these are 'specialist' recruitment agencies), it is also fair to say that good applicants are often overlooked simply because they aren't MIOSH/ RSP.

I would suggest that a good HR manager, H&S manager or whoever is doing the recruiting should way up qualifictions AND experience and employ the best person for the job.

If someone can earn £40k - £50k on the back of a NEBOSH cert, good luck to them - but I doubt there are many examples of this!

Paul
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#10 Posted : 02 February 2005 12:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Diane Thomason
Stuart,
Good stuff there about CVs Stuart!

The only problem with the interview advice is, why do I need to learn to knot a tie?.... I don't normally wear one... I don't especially want to look like k d lang!
;-)

Diane
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#11 Posted : 02 February 2005 12:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Peter Lee
Regarding applying speculatively, this could be futile as companies will shortlist on essential / desirable criteria.

Therefore if it says MIOSH essential you wont get shortlisted with the Certificate.

As for nails, I bite mine (bad habit I know)does this mean I wouldnt get a job with you Stuart?
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#12 Posted : 02 February 2005 13:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By BarryS
Just a thought on Stuarts post - why are Age / DOB and status (married etc) considered important points to out in a cv?

I would have thought that not only are these irrelevant at best they are potential nails for discrimination claims to be hung upon............(and yes before some smart a**e points it out - age discrimination legislation is not being introduced until 2006 - just keeping ahead of the game)
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#13 Posted : 02 February 2005 13:56:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Young
Have to agree with Barry here. After leaving the Navy many moons ago, a career counsellor said that this type of information is secondary and should therefore be on the second page of what should only be a two page document.
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#14 Posted : 02 February 2005 20:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
Two points:

1) sorry about the tie girlies!! I forgot you don't wear them....

2) Name, age, DOB, Status etc. OK if you don;t want to put it on page 1 fine, but when looking at a CV, I personally don't want to go hunting for info that should be up front!!

Ageism, no. nothing to do with it, just common sense...

Status, well that might say alot about you to a person. People have set (inbred) standards of their own, and even subconsciously may make a decision about you based on the information you provide.

If you dont put your age or DOB, don;t state your 'status' or other personal information, some people might draw conclusions, even subconsiously, about you that don't fit with their standards.

Far beit for me to cast aspersions, but it could be their dep seated personal beliefs, for example about marriage, stabilty, experience equated with age, adverse reaction to sexual orientation etc etc.

All this may be considered by the person reading your CV at a subconsious level, without them even being aware, but could affect you getting an interview!!

So why take the chance, a full and frank disclosure is always the best policy,. of course the boss may be 'gay' in which case adding to your CV your sexual orientation or gender may also be an advantage eh!!

well, I'll let you ponder on that one...

Regards...

Stuart
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#15 Posted : 02 February 2005 21:30:00(UTC)
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Posted By Sam Smith
My advice on CVs…
It should fit onto a single page …. if you find yourself going onto a second page then you are waffling. And remember that the ONLY purpose of a CV is to get you the interview (it is not to get you the job). The CV should be short, sharp and to the point.
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#16 Posted : 03 February 2005 11:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By ken mosley
I would just like to make reference to the advert in the SHP page 95 where they are seeking to fill a £55000 pa position, minimum requirement NEBOSH cert. My secretary(£14000 pa) has NEBOSH gen. cert. and is thinking of applying.
This advert speaks volumes about head hunters/employment agencies and their ignorance. The sad thing is that they are doing a diservice to their clients and the applicants.
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#17 Posted : 03 February 2005 14:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight
Just a couple of words on this. Firstly, would you want to work for somebody who obviously has so little interest in the post they're advertising that they can't even be bothered to find out how to specify it? And second, yes the advert in SHP might say £55,000 with certificate, but who is going to get the job? Will it perhaps be the administrator with the certificate (and I sincerely wish them luck!) or will it be the F/MIOSH with qualifications and experience? The employer will find out very quickly as soon as they begin to get forms back that there's a whole world of qualifications out there that go a long way past the cert.

I do agree with some of the other points in the replies; qualifications can't guarantee profficiency, and it's nice when people can be flexible enough to regard real world experience and knowledge as more valuable than a posh looking parchment. And yes, sometimes the strangest people do apply; when I was interviewed for my current job it seems that one of the other interviewees had no knowledge, experience or qualifications whatsoever. How she got through to the interview stage is a bit of a mystery,

John
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#18 Posted : 03 February 2005 14:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By Adam Mogose
Dear Mr Mosley,

Thank you for your comments in relation to our advert for a National Compliance Manager for the Mall.

While your Secretary may possess a Nebosh Certificate, as the advertisement states, she would have to also have:

A minimum of 5 years proven compliance experience gained within a large multi-site, in-house, retail environment.

A proven track record of managing, influencing and motivating individuals, along with the ability to develop relationships with General Managers.

Commercial acumen with the ability to understand issues effecting the broader elements of the business.

Macdonald and Company thrives on its professionalism and in no way wishes to mislead any individual. This advertisement has been approved by the client and so far it has generated over 35 suitable candidates.

Should you wish, I would be happy to discuss this matter further with you.

Kind Regards

Adam

P.S. If your Secretary does feel she is worth more than the salary you state she currently receives I am sure she will be interested to see the results of our annual salary survey which can be found at our website – www.macdonald.co.uk
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#19 Posted : 03 February 2005 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By ken mosley
Dear Adam,

The comment from my secretary on seeing the advert was 'I am put off by anyone using management speak such as "think outside the box" and "understand the big picture" which isn't the everyday language of the H&S profession. Have a look at the previous threads on Bulls*** Bingo and for goodness sake lighten up.
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#20 Posted : 03 February 2005 16:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By AGT
Thanks for joining the discussion Adam the comments obviously touched a nerve. I would be interested to know why you still only requested a NEBOSH Cert is it your opinion that experience is worth it's weight in gold or was it that you are after a career manager rather that a H&S professional.
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