Posted By Jim Walker There is an article on the BBC website about a post man who was banned from letting his dog accompany him on his rounds. Royal Mail have cited "Elf & Safety". Ammo for dear Jeremy?? PS I have consulted my "bible" (ISBN 0 9013 5730 8) and can see no mention of the risks of dogs at work. Does it need update?

Posted By steve e ashton Sorry, but I disagree. Even as a dog owner myself, I think a risk assessment should conclude it is unacceptable for posties to be accompanied by their mutts when delivering mail. Posties are already subject to significant risk from dog attack. Dogs are territorial, and most will 'have a go' at any intruder. Posties are trained to understand this and to recognise the signs of impending attack - most are reasonably good at quieting an apparently aggressive beast so they can safely deliver the mail. If the postie has his own dog, the territoriality issues become insurmountable - I know my own dogs would probably ignore a human simply walking to the front door - but they would without question 'have a go' at any strange dog in the garden - or anyone accompanying the visiting canine. Allowing posties to take their dogs on their rounds would significantly increase a well recognised risk to their H&S. It would also increase the risk of other dog owners being forced to have their 'uncontrolled' pets put down following any attack. Be reasonable - support the bosses on this occasion! Steve

Posted By Gary L AND, all the time they are looking after the dog, they are not doing the job they are paid for, ie delivering OUR mail on time! G

Posted By Adam Jackson I give up. I'm going to stand in a corner and beat my head slowly and repeatedly against a wall.

Posted By Stuart Nagle Rod. youi have definitely hit the nail on the head here. I was wondering why my mail always goes to my neighbours houses, now I know why.... The postman cannot bring his guide dog to work!!! Stuart

Posted By Ron Young Steve Ashton quotes " I think a risk assessment should conclude it is unacceptable for posties to be accompanied by their mutts when delivering mail" So Steve, what you are really saying is that before you even know enough of the facts to perform a competent risk assessment, you already have your outcome? Do you have this philosophy every time you conduct one? Hope your not just another one of the "your risk assessment will identify etc." brigade

Posted By steve e ashton Ron: I keep two dogs. I let them roam in my garden. They are generally well behaved (Several obedience and agility trophies as evidence of that) safe and 'under control' when visitors (including the postie) arrive - I don't have a 'beware of the dogs' sign. If anyone arrived with a strange dog - my dogs would attack. I know this, because they have. My brother in law suffered a serious bite seperating his mutt from mine. It was my dogs who 'were out of control' since his was on a leash. And my daughter suffered a wound requiring three stitches when she tried to take one of our mutts to her friends house - where the resident dog objected. My conclusion - if a postie arrives with his mutt and is attackjed - it will be my dogs at fault.... I am not willing to accept this. And I support the PO managers who have assessed the risk as unacceptable for the delivery people. As it is, I may not know the 'full facts' but I do know (published info, plus several news articles, easily found though Google) that dog attack is a significant risk for posties, in terms of number of attacks and severity of resulting injuries. Anything which makes that significant risk even worse must be assessed as unacceptable. No, I'm not a killjoy, nor do I believe in 'risk assess then ban' as you seem to imply. Steve

Posted By Jim Walker Calm down lads. I was only gently joshing one particular forum user with my post. He of course, is far too sensible to bite.

Posted By Laurie What have terriers done to you that you hate them worse than politicians? I find all dogs stupid and boring, but to dislike them worse than politicians? That's unreasonable! Laurie

Posted By Alan Higgins From today's Telegraph. Makes one really proud to be associated with the health and safety profession. We can go home in the evening well satisifed that we are making a valuable contribution to society. A postman has been banned from taking his dog on his rounds after a solitary complaint from the 600 households to which he delivers. The Staffordshire bull terrier, Oscar, had become a favourite with residents and shopkeepers in the coastal village of Tynemouth, North Tyneside. For eight months it accompanied its owner Andrew Jamieson, 28, and even had its own coat bearing the Royal Mail livery. The dog's working days were numbered, however, when the isolated report was received about it not being on a leash and therefore not under proper control. Managers have now caused a backlash from many customers after ordering Mr Jamieson, 28, to leave his pet at home because of health and safety considerations. The decision has prompted a petition of more than 500 signatures calling for the ban to be lifted, but to no avail. Helen Collington, a local hairdresser who organised the protest, described Oscar and Andrew as a great double act and "marvellous ambassadors for the Royal Mail". She said: "Oscar looked so smart and proud in his little jacket and everyone in this village loves him to bits. "The schoolchildren loved to pat him and two of the older ladies in the street behind always leave bones on their doorsteps. "When Andrew visited the flats and couldn't get his trolley up he would leave it outside and Oscar would sit and guard it. "I think he took almost as much pride in his part of his job as Andrew, they are so good for the Royal Mail that I can't understand this action. "Andrew is like our Postman Pat and I think it is an absolute tragedy that Oscar has been forced to stay at home." Bob Wilson, 78, one of the householders on Andrew's round was at a loss to know why anyone would have complained. He said: "Oscar has such a lovely nature. He looks a treat in his little jacket and puts a smile on everyone's face, it really cheers people up. "We were so disappointed for him and Andy when he stopped coming out because he clearly enjoyed it so much. "Andy is a smashing lad, he is like Tynemouth's Postman Pat, but he misses Oscar as much as anyone." Mr Jamieson's offer to start putting Oscar on a lead for the duration of his round failed to satisfy his employers. He has now had to agree to leave Oscar at home to avoid losing his job. As he performed his round without his faithful companion yesterday, he said: "They didn't stop Postman Pat taking Jess the cat on his rounds did they. "Oscar was fine and everybody loves him, they are so disappointed he can no longer come out with me. I used to take him to all the shops and they would stroke him and pat him. He has had so many sausage rolls from the bakers, which he loves. "There are a lot of old people who don't see anyone all day to talk to and they used to look forward to seeing Oscar. "He is just a puppy, not even two years old and he is totally gutted that he can't come out with me." A Royal Mail spokesman explained that the health and safety of all its staff and customers was of paramount importance. He said: "It is for these reasons that the postman has been told not to take the dog with him in future. "We believe that even if it was always kept on a lead he would experience difficulty in carrying out his job while at the same time trying to control the animal."

Posted By Nick Higginson I think a risk assessment would conclud that this dog is too fat to pose a risk to anyone. By the look of the last posting, he spends all his time eating.

Posted By John Allen I’ve read this thread all the way through and also some of the coverage in the web and newspapers and have to say that I agree with the Post Office management. Sometimes decisions, especially ones based on health and safety are unpopular (eg speed limits, restrictions on smoking in public), but they have to be made. It is foreseeability of danger that it is the test in any assessment of risk yet no one with the honourable exception of Merv seems to have remembered this. Six months without an incident is no guarantee of continued safety. I admire our posties. Delivering mail is a responsible job of great social utility. It is not a thinly disguised dog walking exercise. What if the local bobby decided he wanted to take his rotweiller out on the beat with him? Would people think a Traffic Warden with a bull mastiff was a good idea? Finally, I know we live in a society where some people believe that the characters in Coronation Street are real people but I have to point out that Postman Pat and his cat are pieces of plasticene. They are idealised characters in a children’s fictionalised world where nice things happen, problems are easily resolved and no one gets hurt. Unfortunately we live in a real world where bad things happen and sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made for the general good.

Posted By Allan St.John Holt Thanks a bunch, Jim! I'm not really 'too sensible to bite', I just haven't been able to access the internet for a couple of days and missed the start of the thread. Anyway... I guess none of you will be surprised to learn that I knew nothing at all about this (neither did our press office), and nor did any of the Royal Mail (NOT the Post Office) safety team. So the statements were by the area management, and of course as a result are almost impossible to overturn even if I wanted to. Which, as a matter of fact, I don't. Most of the arguments have already been put on this thread. We have a thousand dog bites a month, for starters, so dogs are a sensitive issue. And in practice you can't start assessing individual dogs for their attack potential. So it's either OK or not OK to take a dog with you. In my view the delivery situations are so varied that it's not always going to be possible to control the animal adequately, especially if it's very active. So any policy decision has to take that into account. Just think before you bleat about Elf and Safety - it's too easy to assume that a decision has not been properly reached. There are occasions in real life where it's right to prohibit some seemingly innocuous act or situation, where necessary, when you are in possession of all the facts. even the dog owner agrees swith the decision, by the way! Just think of the headlines we would get if a 'permitted dog' were to attack - say in self-defence - the dog of a property owner. 'Royal Mail bites back' could be the least of the headlines. I don't think so. Risk assessment also needs to take into account the wider impact on the business. That's something we often forget. Allan - declaring an interest as Head of Safety, Royal Mail Group, here expressing a personal opinion.

Posted By Alan T Is it me or doesnt it just surprise you when that happens. you never know who is reading these postings. At a local IOSH meeting the other day Lawrence Waterman, president of IOSH was addressing the branch and stated he often reads this forum to keep in touch. Hmm maybe he will reply to a posting one day like Allan. Well done Allan