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Posted By s.micklewright
Hi all,
As an organisation we have a certain cleaning contractor who's employees are all family members.
The contractor carries out basic cleaning duties and deep cleans of our properties when tenants move out, occasionally there are sharps and other nasties that require removal.
I asked the contractor if they could supply risk assessments and any cosh assessments along with a copy of their health and safety policy to which they replied... "nah mate we don't av any o that stuff!"
I heard something that family business where exempt from providing such info, though this contractor does have more than 5 employees.
Any guidance here would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Simon.
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Posted By David A Jones
Haven't heard of an opt out for family-only businesses.
But irrespective of that, you are the client and have a duty to ensure that any contractors you use are competent to do the job in a safe manner without, so far as reasonably practicable, harm to themselves, your employees or others. Part of your competency assessment could be requesting risk assessments etc. As the client you can dictate what is required - ideally by inclusion of very specific reference within any contract.
Personally if they can't provide this sort of information I would not use them as a contractor - you could try suggesting that to them, and they might then comply
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Posted By s.micklewright
We are apparently the only client of the contractor to have asked for this information! I know for a fact that our parent company uses them also and it appears that they have never asked, this is alarming.
How common is it for contractor competency to be overlooked by clients.
I am sure there is some kind of get out clause for family business's if not what am I thinking of???
thanks
Simon
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Posted By John Allen
Simon,
you may be thinking of the exemption under HSW74 for domestic servants (ie one's butler and maid!).
I'm racking my brains here but I think there used to be some exemptions under the Factories Act 1961 and the OSRPA 1963 on separate sex toilets if all the employees were members of the same family.
Otherwise if the contracting organisation is an employer it owes the usual duties to its employees.
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Posted By Jim-F
Simon,
What we do is issue a HS&E Questionare to all sub-contracters, asking all the relevant questions about policy, RA, METHOD st. etc.
and clearly state that if the contractor does not fill it and return it we would assume that they no longer wish to considered for work from us
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Posted By Heather Aston
Simon
Bet they haven't got any insurance either. What if they manage to burn one of your premises down....
I know this is an extreme example, but we require ALL contractors - even 1 man bands - to have a specified minimum sum of third party insurance if they want to work for us.
Heather
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Posted By Chas
There may be an exemption from having employers liability insurance. I don't think they will have one for health and safety related documentation (eg risk assessments etc) if there are more than 5 of them.
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Posted By CJ
Many moons ago when I was working with the Environmental Health Department we were refused entry to a sports shops store room. They said it was because they did not want anyone one to know which products they had coming out. When we gave the reason of H+S they still resisted. saying it was a family owned business with no outside employees. We went back to the head EHO who stated that the company were correct and that we had no right to enter and inspect in this circumstance.
I do not know where this rule is in legislation but it does seem to exist somewhere.
I think your situation is different though as you, the client, have duties to ensure the contractor is competant to carry out the work, as well as providing him/her with safe place of work and any risk assessments associated with the workplace.
Imagine how far this could go if family businesses had no duty to risk assess.... family run asbestos removal company, scaffolding company etc
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Posted By Heather Aston
Chas
You are correct that EL insurance is not compulsory for companies whose employees are all CLOSE relatives. This is defined in the ELCI Legislation and extends to parents, siblings, children, etc but NOT to cousins, uncle's brother's dog, etc.
I was referring previously to third party insurance to cover any loss or damage that the contractor might cause to Simon's premises. This is not a legal requirement, but in these litigious days it is a rash company who does business with someone who has no public liability insurance.
What if a cleaning employee caused injury to one of Simon's clients by their negligence? Or caused a major fire at the premises?
Simon's company would have no way of recovering any costs incurred themselves except by making the contractor bankrupt. If the contractor had PL insurance, they would recover costs from the insurer.
Just to be really cynical, I bet they aren't paying the proper tax or NI either.
Heather
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Posted By Laurie
Isn't Sainsbury's family owned?
Is anybody seriously suggesting that .............?
Laurie
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Posted By Heather Aston
Laurie
Only if ALL the employees are the husband, wife, son, daughter, brother, sister or relevant step and grand versions thereof.
So not very likely then....
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Posted By David Brede
I have come across many subcontractors who whilst being good at what they do are quite clueless about documenting it properly.
So I keep supplies of basic documentation such as HSE 5 steps to risk assessment guides, and 'State your Business' so that we do not lose good people all for the want of a bit of paperwork.
Heather has a point about the insurance though. There are some things they have to do for themselves.
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Posted By Stuart Nagle
I am sure that if your own insurers were aware that one of your contractors (irrespective of wether a company or self-employed) were operating in the environment your descibe (sharps and other nasties), they would be quite upset and you could expect your insurance premiums to rise accordingly.
I would suggest that you should 'insist' on getting the relevant H&S documentation from the contractor and monitor their performance for compliance. If not, you could be asking for trouble....
Regards...
Stuart
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Posted By Mike Miller
Simon
Having been involved with social housing providers for many years, I have some experience in this field. Firstly, forget the family organisation thing! just stop using them if they do not provide the information that you require legally.
I had a similar incident with a family set up who was a chemical DPC installer. The LA at the time had been using them for years. two months after taking up post we had an incident where the tenant complained that her young son had asthma and this contractor has triggered an attack.
The tenant happened to be a professional claimant but never the less had contacted the HSE. The HSE told her to ask us for a copy of the risk assessment for the work.
I found out that not only did we not have any risk assessments but we had nothing from this contractor at all. No insurances H&S policy RA/MS COSHH data sheets, NOTHING.
I tried to get something cobbled together from the so called company but frankly what they sent me was pathetic.
They were dispensed with immediately and we got a right good hiding over this issue.
Its quite suprising that some LAs and some other associations will continue to use people on a 'nod and a wink' knowing quite well that they are abusing employees and flouting the law, all because they are cheap and do not complain no matter how bad the risk.
With regard to your initial query, I have always used an environmental specialist for the kind of work you describe, due to the hazardous nature of the work.
My advice again would be don't take the risk. Get rid of them ASAP
Mike
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Posted By David Thomas
Like the majority of readers/posters I havent heard of the "family expemption".
Surely if they are a "business concern" comprising more than 5 people they are legally required to comply. If less than 5 people they are still required to comply if requested to do so. Even if they claim each member is "self employed" they still have a duty to their client. Their failure to do so is (luckily?) something that could be passed to head office to resolve, but ensure you have all communication in writing for CYA purposes.
I had a similar situation where the cleaning team was Supervisor, her mother in law, sister in law and neice, although employed through a cleaning company. When I asked for a copy of the Risk Assessment for the niece, who was 17, I was met with intense verbal abuse. I also found on another site they had a cleaner doing a full night shift whilst in the later stages of pregnancy - without Risk Assessment.
Luckily I was able to terminate the contract after a rapid tender round.
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Posted By Jack There isn't an exemption in the circumstances you describe. However, though not relevant to these circumstances, they are exempt the MHSW requirements relating to young people. See: http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/92-3.htm
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Posted By s.micklewright
Thank you all very much for the responses, I shall speak with our contract manager reagarding all points raised.
Thanks
Simon.
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