Posted By Laurie And what if the fire brigade are on a major shout, and have to pull resources from somewhere 30 minutes away? Do you let the wheelchair user burn? It is your responsibility and yours alone. The professionals will use their training, experience and expertise to assist if the evacuation is not complete by the time they arrive, but initial response must be yours. If you do use the refuge principle it is simply a temporary safe refuge while your own rescue team assembles and deploys Laurie

Posted By Robin Kettle I read with interest your article about safe refuges, although not an answer to your question I would like to add me views as an Access Auditor. On my many access audit visits up and down the country I have undertaken DDA audits in many multi storey buildings. As a disabled person and a DDA auditor I am concerned about the DDA recommendations of areas of safe refuge within multi storey buildings. The DDA states that such building should have areas of safe refuge for those unable to manage the stairs in the event of an evacuation. This surely is assuming the emergency is a fire and those in the safe refuge area will ‘assumable’ be rescued relatively quickly by the fire department. I personally do not have a problem with this assuming the safe refuge area has been checked thoroughly but and the big but is would you be happy to remain in an area of safe refuge in a large building if the emergency was say a ‘Bomb Scare’? Would it not be better to have Evac chairs in all multi storey building with staff equipped to use them? Food for thought wouldn't you say? As a wheelchair user I fully agree that we should be able to have access to most reasonable public buildings, however as an access auditor I feel if we cant get out of the building safely, we should not be going in it, at least not until those responsible have address all issues including egress. For more details on DDA access audits see www.access-auditing.com Finally my advice to fellow disabled people is: When entering a building think about how you will get out in an emergency as well as how you will get in. Note: Companies/forums wishing to use this article please contact via web address above.

Posted By shaun baker Laurie, we do not disagree with the landlord's risk assessor. It makes sense to have a procedure to evacuate disabled persons without relying on fire brigade atendance. What we are concerned with is that we have engaged a professional who claims to be competent in fire and yet was unable to identify a number of issues that we would have expected him to identify. I go along with the idea of using the landlord's risk assessor since they have obviously vetted him better than we vetted our own consultant. According to the landlord's risk assessor we should be looking for someone who is affiliated with the IFE rather than someone who has the MIOSH letters. His feeling is that there is a big difference between general health and safety and fire safety.

Posted By Alan F Cox I have read the correspondence with interest and would now make the following observations: 1. Evacuation of Disabled Persons This is an age old problem that obviously raises a great deal of concern. Many building occupiers feel that because they have "Refuge Areas" they can leave the person there for the Fire Service (FS) to rescue them - whilst the FS will rescue them if the building Fire Procedure fails - it is the occupiers initial responsibility to arrange for their safe evacuation. Obviously this needs a Risk Assessment and on going dialogue with the person to make sure that if any additional equipment or evacuation aids and training are required they are in place. 2. Fire Doors This is another area of great confusion and one which is commonly misunderstood by both Safety and Fire Officers. Having a loose piece of glass may indicate that it is not secured correctly but is no guarantee that the glazing may fail in a fire - it may be that the glazing is in a Fire Resisting Channel which can give the appearance of having "loose glazing". What is important to everyone is that the Fire Door has a Certificate and this will detail how the glazing should be fixed. Many people think that a Vision Panel can be fitted into a Fire Door without a problem - unfortunately this is another myth and only reference to the Fire Door Certificate will verify if this will be ok.

Posted By GeoffB I'm looking for some advice on this very point about refuges. If LFAs are frowning on the use of refuges (although I really would like to see some evidence of that) then what actions should be taken in the event of an emergency. We can pontificate all we like about who said what but we need to know what to do! Imagine a 10 storey office block with a fire exit at each end A person with a mobility disability works on the 7th floor. There is a real fire with real smoke and real panic. Do we block one exit whilst using an evac chair? Or do we use a safe refuge? If using a refuge who do we delegate to stay with that person ? Practical advice only please.

Posted By Messy Simple guide to who does what in the event of fire (with regards to persons within building):- Building occupier = Evacuation of building by ALL occupants Fire Service = Rescue of TRAPPED persons

Posted By Messy Refuges are permitted. The acceptable standards for the design of such places is given in BS5588 part 8 and Approved Doc M(I think). I understood that the main question here was whether the occupiers or Brigade have responsibility in moving the disabled person from the refuge. The answer is that the occupiers/employers have responsibilty for establishing a system for evacuating everyone (not the Brigade) As for the fire door. If the glass is loose it probably does not conform to BS476 and perhaps the consultant who didn't mention it, didn't see it

Posted By Ken Taylor With regard to your two specific points, Shaun, it's a management responsibility to provide for the evacuation of all persons (including disabled) from the workplace and loose glass in a fire door requires attention - although unlikely to present a major risk if it's the proper glass. On the general point of evacuation: refuges are part of the evacuation plan and not for disabled persons to remain in the building (with or without a companion). Approved Document B1 to the Building Regs refers us to the BS quoted above (which gives the details for refuges) and with new- build we are required by Building Control/approved Inspectors to have them. The fire brigade rescue people trapped in buildings - if they can. I am now informed that PAS79:2005 (fire risk assessments) has just been published on the Barbour Index subscription service, so subscribers can download this FOC.

Posted By Ken Taylor Just to add to the qualification issue: you may also find people with MIFPO (or FIFPO) (Institute of Fire Prevention Officers) - who tend to be non-ex UK fire brigade fire professionals.