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Posted By Joe
Dear All,
I am back on looking for some comment from colleagues who have used or are using Dorgard or similar in residential settings.
We are trying to introduce them as an interim response to the issue of residents bedroom doors being open at night (at their request) whilst providing for overall fire safety within the building.
We will be fitting free swing arm devices between this year and next and the local FB have generally accepted our plans.
However we are invloved in 'discussions' with them relating to the need for two sounders to be fitted in each compartment and the absolute requirment for the devices to be deactivated at night.
I know that FB's will vary in opinion accross the country but would be interested to see if anyone else has come up against these issues and how they were resolved.
Many thanks in advance for comments received.
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Posted By Bob Parkin
Fire brigades historically do not like Dorgard. The old mark 1 Dorgard was viewed with suspicion, and was fiercely resisted.
The issue was reviewed by CACFOA (Chief Fire Oficers assn) who put out guidance on their use. This guidance should be referred to by fire safety officers dealing with requests to install units. (email me for a copy, if that's allowed!).
The issue of installing additional sounders intrigues me. My view is that providing the fire alarm is tested weekly, and all Dorgard units are also checked for correct operation, the expense of adding more than one sounder is simply not neessary. It is so easy for a fire officer to ask for belt and braces, but they sometimes forget they are spending someon else's money.
Dorgard has been developed since the days of the old Mk1, and the current model has many improved features.
Bedroom doors, another contencious issue. After all, what are we trying to do? We are trying to give people in residential care a homely atmosphere, some of them do not like their bedroom doors closed at night, and are distressed if they are. In my opinion, it is quite acceptable to use Dorgards on bedroom doors at night, providing their use is well managed. This means educating staff to realise exactly how they work, and that should the fire alarm sound, staff must proceed to the affected area and ensure that all bedroom doors are closed immediately (they probably will already be closed by the time they arrive!)
Surely, a bedroom door has a very good chance of closing if it is fitted with a Dorgard unit, but it will definately NOT close if it is wedged open by a chair or wedge, which is highly likley if the door is closed by staff.
Fire safety is all about good management, and almost any situation can be managed so that the risk is acceptable. Prescriptive guidance is now out, and everything is on (or should be) a risk assessment basis.
It's about time some fire officers pulled their heads out of the sand, and realised that people have to live and work in these homes. If they don't allow automatic self closing devices on fire doors, staff and residents will use their 'initiative'.
Bob Parkin MIFireE, MIFPO
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Posted By J Knight
Hi Joe,
Agree with everything Bob says. I've been recommending Dorgard in residential and nursing homes for three national organisations for 8 years now, and I have noted mixed responses from fire services around the country. The building I'm in now has Dorgard on the 17th century doors onto the carved oak staircase; this is in South Yorkshire and has excited no comment whatsoever from the local fire service. In West Yorks they'll have them, we had problem in North Yorkshire, and so it goes around the country.
I've certainly never been required to fit extra sounders, though sometimes we have been asked to carry out a cound overpressure check at the fitting point, which is perhaps reasonable,
John
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Posted By David Mains
Hey Joe,
just to throw a spanner into the works. There was a safety action notice issued recently (last 6 months) in the NHS regarding these kind of automatic devices. Not sure how relevant it is to your situation but I am trying to find an electronic copy so that I can forward it on.
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Posted By Joe
Thanks for all the information to date.
David I would appreciate any information you have, I may have heard about this update already which if correct, I believe bans the use of these devices in NHS properties on any doors which lead onto a fire safety escape route (which if true, could mean most doors onto most corridors).
This certainly is a hot topic (no pun intended!) as there is also a discussion on-going on the Fire Net pages about this issue for anyone who may be interested.
Still no specific update from my own Fire Authority as yet but I will update everyone as and when.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
If I was to consider installing a number of these, I would also want to get a quote for magnetic holders wired to the alarm system - which would not depend upon sounder audibility and be vulnerable to damage to the same extent. See also earlier threads on this subject.
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Posted By J Knight
Also would be sincerely interested in any advice from NHS about restricting the use of Dorgard as we already use the Firecode series as the basis of our FSRA's. will be a real pain if we can't use them any more,
John
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Posted By Joe
I have just been informed by my local FB that they will not support the use of these devices within a care home setting. They have speciffically mentioned the updated guidance within NHS which drastically reduces the areas which these devices can be used i.e. no doors onto 'safety critical' corridors which effectively rules out their use in most buildings.
I personally feel this goes against the current climate of risk assessment problem solving. What is the point of attempting to address issues with available technology and good management practice when enforcing authorities take no notice.
I know its only Thursday but I feel I will be having my Friday night beer early this week!!!
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Posted By Nigel Hammond
I have had similar experiences with the different fire brigades as those mentioned on on this thread so far. Buckingham fire service do not like dorgards and will not allow them in what they call high risk areas - which they say are things like laundry rooms and kitchens. Herts won't even come out to our services. Leicester very helpful and thorough. Cheshire not keen on dorgards.
Recently, Bucks FS wouldn't even allow wired in magnetic door releasers on a kitchen. I attended site and noted that the kitchen door was propped open with a bin. So, I challenged the fire officer on his requirement and his boss agreed to allow magnetic door releasers (not dorgards) as long as our risk assessment justifies the door release.
I have asked fire officers why they have a policy against dorgards. The only arguments I have been given are these:
1. They get knocked easily by wheelchairs
2. They rely on regular maintenance and tests of the battery condition
3. They can take 30 seconds to respond to the alarm.
Despite these concerns I still think dorgards are cost effective and useful divices.
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Posted By J Knight
Interested in Bucks FS problem with wired in door closers. They are specifically allowed in the only best practice guidance available, which is either the Scottish or Northern Irish editions of 'Firecode - Fire safety in NHS residential premises, HTM84'. Dorgard wouldn't meet HTM84's standard for high risk areas (as defined in HTM84) but any of the available magnetic devices, as long as it is connected to the alarm and detection system and subject to appropraite PPM etc would,
John
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