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#1 Posted : 05 May 2005 15:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan G Hi everyone, We use RCD Breakers on the end of each extension lead, drill’s as we plug them in to clients houses. As we are all aware we can self-test a RCD Breaker by pressing test and then reset, how do you prove and document that this type of basic self test is functioning correctly. Is there a way to calibrate them or can you PAT test them? Is a self-test sufficient? All is welcome. Regards Alan
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#2 Posted : 05 May 2005 15:28:00(UTC)
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Posted By Liam Mc Conalogue Alan, I would inspect the MSDS which should address any testing, if not contact the manufacturer. Liam
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#3 Posted : 05 May 2005 15:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Calum R Cameron Sounds like you are involved with some kind of building type works and therefore you should not be using an RCD. As they are electro-mechanical devices they are prone to failure and this may present a risk. Instead, you should be using a 110v transformer which is centre tapped to earth thus reducing the voltage reference to earth to 55-65v ac. It is unlikely that you would be able to justify the use of 230v in a risk assessment as the cost of 110v tools are comparable. Obviously - even before using 110v there is the battery tool option as they are very good these days. Please feel free to contact me if you require further help.
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#4 Posted : 07 May 2005 23:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Frank Hallett Whilst the various aspects of whether you should, or shouldn't be using an RCD may rage; presumably a risk assessment has been done that has addressed the issues of lugging 110v equipment about and still having to connect it to the power source via an RCD unless you use something like hamster power or natural sunlight. You have described what would best be termed an "operators routine inspection" - the plug in, test & re-set. Each RCD will still require further testing at suitable periods to ensure that the case hasn't degraded to the point that anyone handling it could be subject to an electrical leak or discharge [PAT testing]. Frank Hallett
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#5 Posted : 08 May 2005 10:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By Micky Talk to a UK manufacturer of RCDs. They will have a technical department and will be able to authoritively answer your questions. Also try RS as they have equipment specification sheets for all the equipment they sell.
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#6 Posted : 09 May 2005 09:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Alan G Thanks to all that have replied. Regards Alan
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#7 Posted : 09 May 2005 10:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Hunter To take the risk assessment principle to logical conclusion, you should give serious consideration to using battery operated power tools!
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#8 Posted : 09 May 2005 11:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By J Knight Just to add my twopennorth; batteries are definitely what you should be using unless it isn't practicable. RCDs are appliances and should be subject to a routine inspection and test at appropriate intervals (on a building site that would be pretty frequent) and in addition should be maintained in accordance with any instructions from the manufacturer or supplier. Hand drills anybody? (oops, forgot about WRULD Doh!) John
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#9 Posted : 11 May 2005 21:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Barry Cooper RCD's are ok, 110v better, battery drills ideal. Trouble with RCD's they only protect you against electric shocks due to earth faults. Not those due to Live/neutral faults, and most drills these days are double insulated and have no earth conductor.
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#10 Posted : 11 May 2005 22:08:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt My understanding is that they work on an imbalance beween the current going in and the current going out. So if you are getting an electric current through you it is almost certain there will be a leakage causing an imbalance and the RCD will trip. The danger is (but rare in my experience) that the mechanical side of the RCD can fail and if not regularly tested it will go unnoticed. Geoff
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#11 Posted : 11 May 2005 22:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Barry Cooper The imbalance of current is only caused when for example you touch the live terminal and earth, so the RCD will trip. If you touch live and neutral there will be no imbalance, so the RCD may not trip
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#12 Posted : 12 May 2005 13:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt There will invariably be a leakage to earth in the event of an electric shock. The only time I could possibly envisage where that might not apply would be a person being directly connected between live and neutral (think about that one) and in an environment where there would be no earth leakage whatsoever. Very difficult to achieve. And in that case a fuse/MCB would also offer no protection. Out of interest does anybody have any figures on fatalities where the RCD has not recognised a fault and not operated? And secondly, the incidence of mechanical/electrical failure rate of RCDs?
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#13 Posted : 12 May 2005 13:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Calum R Cameron Geoff-just to point out as I am an ex electrician-The RCD recognises an imbalance between the phase conductors ie live and neutral. If the imbalance in current is sufficient then the RCD will open circuit. It is incorrect however to say that a standard fuse or MCB would provide any protection against an electrocution as a BS88 fuse has a fusing factor of around x2 which means it can take up to twice its rated current to rupture it. If the fuse was rated at say 32A it could take a minimum of 64A to rupture it-It takes 30mA to fibrilate a human heart and much less if you happen to be a cow. Fuses offer no protection to a person sustaining an electrocution. Here endeth the lecture. Cheers Calum Cameron MIOSH Dip2 OSH
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#14 Posted : 12 May 2005 14:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt You've misunderstood my message Calum. I have said in the case of an RCD that earth leakage would almost invariably result in it tripping. And that it is difficult to envisage a situtation where an RCD would not trip when someone is receiving an electric shock. I have also said (as an aside) that a fuse would not trip where a person is between live and neutral (all things being equal). I'm sure we are all aware a fuse is primarily designed to protect equipment and not people. I'm also heppy to tell you about my background as an electronics engineer if that helps my case :-)
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#15 Posted : 12 May 2005 14:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Simon Ayee RCDs should be tested periodically as well as routinely. Periodic testing using suitable test equipment can confirm that the RCD operates at the correct current and within the correct time. The routine self test tells you if it works & the periodic test tells you that it works effectively. The manual self test should be carried out more frequently than the periodic test test. Presumably the frequency is covered in BS7671 for installations. Most portable RCD's I have used instruct you to self test before each use.
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#16 Posted : 12 May 2005 14:49:00(UTC)
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Posted By Geoff Burt Hi Simon I guess that would point to the RCD being tested during the periodic testing of the fixed installion which for low risk premises can be as long a 5 years! In practice that is usually the case ie they do not get checked electrically, and I encourage users to check them mechanically weekly or monthly depending on the circumstances. Problems of course are that portable RCDs will be prone to damage and will not come under the fixed installation testing regime, and fixed RCDs can be some way from the workplace and out of mind - so are unlikely to get checked regularly unless a robust system is in place. Might be better to throw portable RCDs away at regular periods and get new ones! Geoff
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#17 Posted : 12 May 2005 15:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jon Bradburn Hello All, I'm no expert but we have recently had several issues regarding RCD's and test frequency. I have found conflicting information but in a nutshell Portable RCD's should be self tested using the built in function on a regular basis (we go for before each use - not a difficult task is it and normally recommeded by the manufacturer) other sources state weekly / monthly / quarterly checks depending on application / environment etc. I found to consensus that a full checked should be carried out every 2 years by a 'qualified electrician', although some sources the 'competent person' was used. We have technicians who are not electricians but who are PAT trained, and would consider them competant to use an RCD tester (similar and sometimes incorporated into the PAT tester, given appropriate training. Given the cost of one of these units aginst price of a poratble RCD we have decided to replace RCD's evry 2 years - probably not cost effective if you have lots! As far as 'fixed' RCD's go The general advice I found was that less frequent testing was required as they are not subjected to the stresses of a portable type. Again application and environment are a factor. The 'norm' appears to be a 3 monthly user check and a full testing as part of the Fixed installation checks - be that 1, 3 or 5 years industry dependant. We have found www.pat-testing.info to be a good site for all PAT testing information. Though it does refer to the 'qualified electrician' as opposed to 'competent person' Hope this helps Jon
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#18 Posted : 12 May 2005 15:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jon Bradburn Sorry Alan - I think we have all digressed a little. We instruct staff to self test before use, while our PAT chap does the same monthly and records this fact on our fault/maintenance record. (We only have 9 of them) Most PAT testers cannot test RCD functionality - you need one of the more expensive ones or a standalone unit about £250 (assuming you have someone trained in their use). Yes there is a requirement for this second test. Not heard of any way to calibrate them - I doubt it - the technically qualfied posters here can probably answer that better Regards Jon
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