Posted By Jason McQueen Just a quick question as Ive asked around the office and cant get a consensous of opinion. If you have been signed off work by your doctor do you actually have to have the time off? We had an employee who was signed off but reported for work as he didnt want the time off. One of our managers turned him away as she was of the understanding that he needs to go back to his doctors and be signed back before he can come in. Any views?

Posted By Jason McQueen That was pretty much my opinion but I was just trying to get some information to support the argument.

Posted By Delwynne Just to reiterate the above points, if a person has been signed off then they should not work. In my experience doctors are generally a little 'quick' to issue sign off's. I'm sure if your employee returned to their doctor and explained their wish to work then provided it is not going to severely impact on their health the doctor would be happy to sign them back on.

Posted By garyh I agree that Doctors generally sign people "on the sick" too easily - someone can claim to have had an accident at work and get a sick note..........try arguing with that! The original question was about being able to work whilst signed "on the sick" - I believe that for insurance reasons you must be signed back "off the sick" before working. (Not if you were "self cert", of course).

Posted By angela westwood occupational health physicians can overide the decisions of the GP. From personal experience The GP is sometimes not the best person to make a decison on whether someone is fit to return to work. We would certainly take the view that the opinion of the occupational health physician is paramount to getting a person back to work, rather than the GPs, particularly as rehabilitation of an employee back into the workplace works more successfully sooner rather than later. In my experience the sooner occupational health involvement intervenes the better outcome for the employee in returning to work. Occupational health can liase with the GP and together can form an opinion of whether a phased return is required, whether restrictions are needed etc. Angela

Posted By jacq Hi Not wishing to hi-jack the thread, but we have a slightly different slant. Employee has been off work for a considerable period of time from depression, which he alleges came from work place harassment. His GP has confirmed this diagnosis. Company OHD doctor has examined and signed him as fit to work. The employees GP and the benefit Agency doctor refuse to sign the employee as fit to work. The company has now given the employee a return to work date and intend to dismiss him if he refuses to return to work on the date specified by the company. Can he be forced to return to work if his own GP and a separate benefits agency doctor have recommended that he is unfit for work. Does the OHD doctor over-rule both these opinions? Any opnions gratefully received Jacq

Posted By angela westwood Hi all it might be helpful to sign on with jisc mail which is the forum for occupational health advisers and occupational health physicians for their views of sickness absence. Sickness absence has come up time and time again on the jisc mail forum as well as loads of other occupational safety or health and safety issues. I had the good fortune of working in the past for an integrated occupational health and safety department. We were also involved in sickness absence management as well as traditional health and safety issues and it is from this experience that I would always recommend occupational health involement in deciding whether someone is fit to work

Posted By John Murgatroyd My views of OH "specialists" is that they serve two masters. the FIRST master they serve is their "employer", the company who pays them. The SECOND is the patient. The item below is from an OH website.... Personally, I think that using an OH advisor to force someone back to work when their personal GP (or consultant) advises against it is a risky procedure. As I've said before, the employee may well go to see your (probably underqualified) OH advisor, but if he/she refuses to sign a release then the advisor cannot tell you squat. To do so would be a criminal offence. Unless you're using someone who isn't a health professional, in which case you're up the creek without a paddle, legal-wise.....aand forcing a depressive back to work (when it may well have been work that made them depressed) sounds like total insanity.... **************** Leaner company profiles mean that there are now fewer employees in organisations - which makes it crucial that employees are not incapacitated or lost through preventable ill health. Taking positive steps to improve employees' health will help recruit and retain staff, reduce staff turnover and enhance your image. Sound advice on compliance with legislation reduces the risk of costly prosecution and loss of image. Increasingly, employees and former employees claim compensation for work-related illness and injury, whether or not a particular hazard is covered by legislation. Noise-induced deafness, back pain, upper limb disorders and stress are good examples. These losses are preventable. Employers' liability insurers insist that employers demonstrate that they are adequately protecting the health of their employees. The involvement of an occupational physician helps to control employers’ liability insurance premium increases. The message is clear. Preventive occupational health measures can be every bit as beneficial to the business as the maintenance of a company's other assets.

Posted By John Murgatroyd There is a guy working at my place who has a bad back. As in BAD. He won't take time off, he also has a 1000 pound a month mortgage. He isn't necessarily the best person to ask, or decide, about time off or not. As to the OH code of ethics....the less said the better. If they were any good as doctors, they'd be practicing medicine. If they're not doctors, then they ain't getting near me. I know who my moneys on...a doctor (qualified and practicing)...a consultant (qualified and practicing)...or an OH professional (not a doctor but with an inflated idea of his/her own skills)

Posted By Adam Jackson To respond to jacq, I'd be very cautious about an in-house or appointed OH professional over-ruling a GP and benefits agency medical practitioner. Its not intended as a slur on OH, I've worked with some excellent ones in the past, but as mentioned previously if it comes to a compensation case you have two 'independent' practitioners versus one who is paid by the employer. Personally, I'd err on the side of caution and unless you really think your chances are good in any claim go with the employee's GP.

Posted By Adam Jackson Then.. employee develops complications or the injury worsens due to unforeseen circumstances. Company has put someone back to work over the advice of their GP. Company stuffed.

Posted By Adam Jackson If the GP goes along with it then all well and good, but where the GP and OH are at conflict the GP wins out every time.

Posted By Kieran J Duignan Some root problems complicate the issues involved here. They include: 1. GPs vary not only in competence but also in capability to assess occupational illnesses 2. Very, very few GPs without specialist indepth training in occupational medicine have the time or inclination to challend an Associate of Fellow of the Faculty of Occupcatioal Medicine; where they might, it would be for a court to determine the matter on the basis of all available evidence. It's not a matter of perceptions of relative status. 3. Although 'stress' is a major occasion of absenteeism, reliable, valid processes of assessment are seldom used. For most GPs and OH nurses lack specialist training necessary to assess the severity of psychological disturbance or illness; and very, very few psychiatrists are members of the Faculty of Occupational Medicine. So, if the kind of dispute Adam refers to were to arise, a court could well judge that a GP or OH nurse were out of their competence in offering an assessment 4. In my own experience, doctors who are members (Associate or Fellow) of the Faculty of Occupational Medicine resist pressure from HR, etc. to assess psychological illness or disturbance and they recommend that an employer consults a chartered occupational psychologist who is a qualified counsellor and/or registered safety practitioner and is better qualified than they are to put themselves up for court cross-examination in the tiny minority of instances where this occurs.

Posted By Dave Wilson Is it only a GP who can sign people Off?