Posted By Paul Bellis I am a struggling consultancy -one man band, who is getting increasingly frustrated at the "unqualified" advisors out there. I have met another today, the third recently who has no IOSH accreditation and has sat basic safety courses -in one case previously a managing safely in this one today just done a NEBOSH general - yet is inundated with work in the construction environment. It would appear that qualifications and membership of IOSH counts for zip - I am refusing do do any more academic qualifications - why bother?. just set up as a consulatant and off you go - no regulation or control. Employers dont know the difference and dont care. It took me 5 or 6 years to get to MIOSH RSP, have 11 years experience -yet do a managing safely course for 4 days - announce - I am now a Consultant, get a few contacts and off we go... who cares?.. i do because I cant get the work due to the seemingly abundance of "cheap and cheerful " (or not in some cases) people about. - where am i going wrong that these people are getting the work and I cant get a look in! Whist I am NOT decrying those practicing safety people with a wealth of experience and are working hard toward achieving thier academic qualifiactions through whichever route, I AM going off on one at people who sit a basic course - or not even that in some cases and then go off and undermine the professionalism that we are tring to achieve. Why did I waste 5 years we could all save ourselves a lot of time and money on sitting exams an just set up.. or so It seems. Sorry for going off one one but this has wound me up too often of late. I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts, before i save myself money and not bother renewing my membership next time. Paul

Posted By Richard Chalkley Why bother being a member? Try this, the odd time that I have needed specialist help beyond my qualifications and ability I have checked the consultants qualifications and experience. Cheap is no use if they might give duff advice which I may or may not spot till I get an enforcement notice... Now I realise that not all in this world are that enlightened but we do try to lead the way. Chin up and keep paying the subscription! Richard.

Posted By Jay Joshi Paul, My understanding is that this is more to do with the interpretation and enforcement of regulation 7 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 by the employer. The ACoP/Guidance to regulation 7 on one hand sates that:- Competence in the sense it is used in these Regulations does not necessarily depend on the possession of particular skills or qualifications. Simple situations may require only the following: (a) an understanding of relevant current best practice; (b) an awareness of the limitations of one's own experience and knowledge; and (c) the willingness and ability to supplement existing experience and knowledge, when necessary by obtaining external help and advice. Then for complec situations, the guidance states that:- More complicated situations will require the competent assistant to have a higher level of knowledge and experience. .................. Employers are advised to check the appropriate health and safety qualifications .........or membership of a professional body or similar organisation (at an appropriate level and in an appropriate part of health and safety) to satisfy themselves that the assistant they appoint has a sufficiently high level of competence. I understand that IOSH, after the launch of the individual chartered status in the new membership stucture later this year will also have a concerted campaign to inform & educate/influence the employers etc about it. Individual chartered status in any profession is generally better known & understood compared to the RSP we currently have. However, unless the HSE deals with this in a more robust manner, influencing employers' choice of competent person will be a slow process. The guidance/ACoP to regulations 7 of the 1999 Management Regulations is more compared to the 1992 version--but how many employers, especially the SME's--and that too in the construction sector would know and/or interpret it correctly!

Posted By Jim Walker I would agree it is frustrating. However I can tell you that not all industry sectors are flippant in who they employ. It will be a great day when the action outlined by Jay actually takes hold. HSE need to clamp down on these cowboys. Would it be of any use if, when you tender for work you point out to these people where and how your credentials can be checked out? Also alert them to instances where empolyers have been prosecuted for not have competent persons doing the H&S job.

Posted By Paul Bellis Matthew So what you are saying - as is the view of a lot of industry -that being knowlegable in health and safety management and maintaining CPD to ensure you safety information is current and valid doesnt matter, experience - or the appearance of being experienced is more important? or is what you are saying, is that - as it should be -competence is a mixture of the two, which is correct, plus knowing your limitations. i would agree its horses for courses, thats why I am annoyed at someone with the NEBOSH general or worse managing safely- giving advice on the construction circuit -surely he would have done he NEBOSH construction Cert as a minimum? or even the IOSH managing safely in construction as a starter - before then becomming more qualified and then giving advice-if in the construction field? on other replies HSE dont comment on qualifications at all and also dont appear to care either... unless you know otherwise! Paul

Posted By Robert K Lewis As the poster of the previous thread I am not at all bothered Paul by your interjection. The issue raises some severe questions. There are far too many "consultants" in construction who will charge £50 per hour inc. of travel and yet have barely the first idea other than barrack room ideas developed wherever. Some time ago I commented on the roving safety representatives and the fact that they were to be known as worker safety advisers. The HSE is fully supportive of the idea - but look at the background qualifications - they are very basic. As long as you stay with an absolute precautionary principle and are lucky you will not be caught. Having said that I have seen some major players using these people because the tender price allows no more than £30 per hour for the service. Bob

Posted By Paul Bellis A man walks into a pet shop looking to buy a monkey. The shop owner points towards three identical looking monkeys in politically-correct, animal-friendly and safe natural mini-habitats. "The one on the left costs £500," says the shop owner. "Why so much?" asks the customer. "Because it has a NEBOSH certificate," answers the shop owner. The customer inquires about the next monkey and is told, "That one costs £1500. "Because it has a Diploma 1&2," answers the shop owner. The startled man then asks about the third monkey. "That one costs £3000," answers the shop owner. "3000 pounds!!" exclaims the man. "What can that one do?" To which the owner replies, "To be honest, I've never seen it do a single thing, hes got no qualifications - but it calls itself a Consultant." Paul

Posted By George Wedgwood Perceptions can be the mother of destruction if allowed to go unchallenged! I can assure you that IOSH does take these kind of views seriously and is very aware of its 'brand' out there and what it needs to do to improve its recognition and value - this is ongoing. One thing I am certain of; if you lower your own standards, you will end up like those you criticise and holding to your standards will be noticed, and add value to your services. I know as I have worked for many employers and clients, where reputation, affiliation and experience are all judged together when agreeing a contract. IOSH Membership has always been a good standard to align with and if others abuse it, then ensure you work for those that do value it! The others will eventually be the losers. The new membership standards will make a difference and identify more clearly, the credible from the incompetent - but there will always be the odd conman who will try to cut corners - just be aware when quoting and use your standards and track record to separate you from them - quality will win out in the end. Of course if you are competing on the same level, maybe you should raise your game a bit? Regards, George (Council Member)

Posted By Peter Longworth "or even better it was legislated that only persons with a certain professional qualification could practice health and safety" So could you tell me how someone would get that qualification if they weren't allowed to practice health and safety while getting it. The fact is that ,IOSH or not, a lot of work is already is going to the "cowboys" as you call them. Making it more difficult for people to practice health and safety or join the ivory towers of IOSH is only going to make more of these so called cowboys set up on their own. Maybe you should ask yourself why all this work is going to the "cowboys" and not coming your way. What is it that they are doing that you aren't? Are they, for instance, charging less than you are? Are they going out and canvassing for work? Are they networking every chance they get?

Posted By Paul Bellis Peter There is a route within the professional organisation for aspiring safety practitioners to achieve recognition - this does not bar "trainee" safety officers from being such and practicing health and safety in a controlled environment and becomming fully qualified. it is the same in your organisation -would Baxi potterton employ a non qualified safety advisor? Do they not conduct thier own professional training workshops for gas engineers and the like? or is being corgi registered an ivory tower also - wich would then justify "cowboys" as you called them -setting up? - because they dont want to get the right qualification. - work on a gas boiler unqualified and see what happens! I take the point about getting myself about- and agree, it is something that perhaps i am not doing too well. threads getting interesting!

Posted By Brett Day Just a thought, when I first qualified the membership grades were: Affiliate (for those with no quals but an interest or connection with safety), Associate (Nebosh General Cert or equivalent), TechSP (Construction Cert or Dip 1 + 3 years experience) and then the 'full' membership grades. Since then the affiliate and associate grades have been lumped together and the TechSP is on the way out I have raised my concerns with IOSH over this but to no avail, previously we had a membership structure that differentiated the members by quals and experience, now we have a top heavy bias towards the corporate members. In my opinion IOSH has not helped in this matter by implying that you are not competant or effective in safety unless you are a corporate member. In the areas of safety that I work in I have the Construction Cert and specific courses and qualifications such as confined spaces and yet as a member I get the feeling that I am considered 'second rate'. I have spoken to IOSH regarding CPD and despite recieving, reading and digesting newsletters such as the HSE Infonet, Croners and Jordans and regularly attending H&S lectures at the ICE these do not qualify as CPD yet attending my local branch meeting does. Safety in the workplace runs from low risk all the way to high risk the membership grades of an organisation need to accuratly reflect this and communicate this to the 'outside world'. When I talk to non safety people in companies the two that are readily known are RoSPA and the British Safety Council, mention IOSH and I get blank stares. I think IOSH could work harder to promote all grades and educate our 'clients'. Until then it's not a surprise that there are cowboys out there. If the client doesn't understand the differing skill levels and doesn't know where to look to verify this information then, unfortunately the commercial aspect (price) will take priority.

Posted By Paul Bellis I take it all back - Ive got it all wrong - it appears then all you need is a certificate....plus of course experience - as I said at the start - why bother progressing save your money and time studying save your membership fees. take this job advert for instance Senior Health, Safety and Environmental Consultant required for a £35million pound consultancy primarily working in and around construction. You will be based either in Manchester, Lichfield or Birmingham. You will line manage a number of Health and Safety Consultants and Planning Supervisors, act as primary focus for internal and clients' Health and Safety queries and support in the Central Region, acting as Planning Supervisor on a number of large and high profile construction projects and providing health and safety training courses to clients. You will have excellent communication skills, be self motivated, come from a background with elements from commercial property, facilities management, consulting, building design and hold a minimum of NEBOSH Certificate, although more formal qualifications would be advantageous. The successful applicant will have a proven track record of providing direction regarding health, safety and possibly environmental issues. yes all you need is a Certificate - you can then Manage consultants and planning supervisors - it pays 40K and gives you a car etc apologies to the recruitment agency concerned for using thier advert -i have left thier details off but if anyone wants to know who is advertising contact me direct and I will forward the details No Im not applying as I dont feel I am competent to take it on ( I am NOT a planning supervisor and dont have the experience!) Paul

Posted By Merv Newman "why bother being a member ?" made me try to remember why I became a member in the first place. My then employer was putting together a file of consultant CVs and I asked me to write mine. I saw that one of my colleagues had a university qualification in H&S and another had actually been decorated by the King of Belgium. (OBE or equivalent, but it was in his CV) so I needed something a bit more impressive than my OU BA. That and a fourpenny stamp (plus about 15 years professional experience) got me a MIOSH and the RSP followed in due course. As I have admitted here before I don't have any qualifications, only the membership. A few clients have asked what the letters on my card mean. I very much doubt that any have checked. (not even our insurers) And I very much doubt if they have influenced their choice of consultant. Why do I stay in ? Because it is one of my main sources of up to date information and about my only point of contact with the profession. I like this chat show and the company pays my subscription. As should every company that employs a MIOSH/RSP

Posted By Heather Aston Jon I certainly wouldn't say as an NGC holder you are not competent to give advice. As you rightly say yourself, you are competent to give advice within your sphere of knowledge and experience. Outside that area, it is incumbent upon you to tell your employer if/when they need to employ a specialist. I've been MIOSH for 15 years now and RSP for almost as long - I have qualifications in fire safety management and environmental management (Not trying to start a contest here BTW). There are still many areas of HS&E where I would not feel completely confortable giving advice. If I was asked to, I would either go away and research it, ask for help (maybe on here if appropriate) or tell my employer that we needed outside advice. I have met some excellent consultants, but I am also frequently annoyed by telephone calls from those who a) don't seem to know what they are talking about and b) Won't take no for an answer when I tell tham that actually we've been doing our own risk assessments for 15 years now..... Every profession has people like this - unfortunately ours does seem to attract more than its fair share of people who think a 2 week course and a bit of paper means they are qualified to give advice likely to have a direct effect on peoples' health and well-being. Rant over (for the moment...) Heather

Posted By Jasonjg Boy have I got a lot to learn I have actually took time out from work as it was interfering with study, family life and the fact that I had not really had a good break from the rat race for some years. So no money coming in and it was renewal time for IOSH. Hmmm at this point I sat down and thought back to where it all began, 4/5 years ago late 20's and still in the usual not very well paid type. Need a change I thought Get advised that H&S is most rewarding and various job on the market. "Go do the cert" I am advised So I go and do it (actually first proper exam I sat) Wow I like this but I need more knowledge So I go and pay for the dip 1 Wow this is great (so I go and get a couple of safety related jobs) Wow I need to learn more So I go and pay for dip 2 Many would argue and some have even said that I should be working in safety now and getting my rewards. I have been accused of being a little naive when it comes to the big management world as I am ready now and should be out there. I do not think so (method behind madness) I like the pace that I am going though next year I think I am about ready to fully introduce myself to H&S. In the mean time I like to various agency assignments and look at them as a learning experience. Why be a member Well I probably would not have needed to be member as some work came my way anyway. But under the new structure and the CPD I am hoping that all things level out sooner or later. I like the discussions on this board as they sometimes do make us all stop and think about our roles. New ideas new methods. New people and contacts. Why! It is you guys/gals that is the reason I am a member not IOSH. IOSH is just the co-ordinator to me at the moment, as I have not really needed them. I don't care if you have cert dip degree or NVQ or no qualifications. If folks can help me solve problems that I may encounter then you get my vote. Its up to me to decide if I should take your advice. Same with employers. IOSH is setting out to educate the ill informed so I go with their judgement. I can however understand the frustrations of some: I went for an interview once only to have an obnoxious bloke go on about how rubbish IOSH is and how irrelevant NEBOSH qualifications are (you know the type). So here’s to the hope that employers will be educated and rouge consultants get into shape with the new CPD. Will it work? I wonder

Posted By Jasonjg Chris I think we all have our own views on what is a rouge consultant and to be totally honest with you, I have not really had enough experience to properly define one. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are plenty of consultants in the business who do not care for membership or affiliation to organisations, yet still do a fantastic job through sheer pride in their work and sticking to their own specialities matched with great expertise and experience in those particular circumstances. Yet in my own opinion, there are equally as people out there who due to business pressure and lack of work etc, will claim to be able to solve a specific company problem yet cut, paste and polish very simple information that could have been obtained for £14.99 from HMSO and maybe one or two management meetings. (Probably wrong here as this is most likely one of the biggest incomes of any consultant) I suppose some blame would have to go to the employers who find they need these quick fixes or cosmetic solutions. It just gets a little annoying when you read a report that a client paid £360 for, that suggests you demolish a set of Victorian steps with 3 170mm height steps on Regent Square in London. All this to place a ramp for purposes of DDA. Then you consider that there is a reception attendant and only 500 public visitors a year etc. Experience is a great thing yet so is some form of academic qualification or affiliation to match that experience. The whole point of my comments comes down to this: - Whilst I probably could set up and get work with what I know now as well as a bit of pedantic work and personality. I will strive to at least abide by the acceptable and expected standards within the industry. IOSH is one method and so I will go through this cycle of membership to help me reach those standards. I could, have done and probably will do again, do some work that I am not fully experienced in, yet am lucky/cautious enough to have a senior consultant or manager to check things for me. I have done and probably will do again, pull out of a job that is baffling me or when I think some more assistance is needed. If any of what I am trying to say is misunderstood then I apologise for the comments. But then again I am just a naive student at the moment that pays membership and likes probing you guys/gals to get his £110 worth. I wonder if that will change in a years time when I need to actually need to earn some money.

Posted By MMoran I think we all got it apart from Jason. It just goes to show that we should read something, count to ten and then reply!! It is too easy to start a rant when something has wound us up.