Posted By Kenny McGillivray
Hi jackw

Front room fire 2 from:

BRE ltd
Garston
Watford
WD25 9XX

01923 664272

Hope this helps

Kenny

Posted By Frank Hallett
Hi jackw.

I suggest that you get a copy of the BRE video - "Your Office Fire". I use it in preference to any other as asession opener as it clearly demonstrates why no-one should be complacent about fires starting, and how quickly a fire in an enclosed space can develop from a small, relatively simple fire to escape from into a fully developed flashover within 4 [yes - 4] minutes.

I presume that you have already re-visited the built-in assumptions about fighting fires [why do it?] and ensuring that both your Fire Marshals and any disadvantaged persons have been thoroughly considered for their continued safety.

If you have any further questions, feel free to contact me direct if you think it appropriate.

Frank Hallett

Posted By Frank Hallett
Hi jackw

The BRE video does exactly what you require - "I just feel the front room gives a better insight into enclsoed small room fires with furnishings in it." even if it is aimed at the BRE notion of what an office looks like! It's worth it just for the discussion that raises.
Frank Hallett

Posted By shaun mckeever
Jack

why do you discourage staff from fighting fires?

I think there are good reasons for encouraging certain members of staff to tackle small fires so long as they know how to do it without taking personal risks:-

1) Stastically 80% of fires are extinguished before fire brigade involvement.

2) The majority of businesses that have a major fire never recover even after insurance has paid out. Early intervention could prevent this.

3) As has been said a small fire can reach flashover in 4 minutes - probably about the same time as a firefighter might be entering the building - so early action could even save a firefighter from serious injury or death!

4) I just think it is unrealistic to expect staff to turn their back on a fire and walk out when they could very easily do something about it.

There are other reasons.

I am not in any way advocating that staff place themselves at risk. Correct training should provide staff with sufficient information as to when to recognise that a fire is beyond their abilities and then they should turn their back on the fire and walk away, but a carte blanche rule that all fires should be left to the professionals I think is foolish.

Shaun McKeever

Posted By jackw.
Hi Frank, thanks for saving me a long response to the "fire fighter". In addition to what you have alluded too. Our instructions to staff on discovering a fire:
1 raise the alarm using the nearest call point
2. Telephone the emergency service
3. Check the panel for identification of the zone thus allowing evacuation of residents nearest to the fire in the first instance.
We consider that completing the first 2 and then getting hold of a fire extinguisher lets say for a class 1 fire= water. the weight of these will not allow staff to "run" down a corridor back to a fire (we have a predominantly female staff group in most locations). I doub't if any one would complete this and be back at the fire in less than a minute. I hope we are all aware of how much a fire can develop in that time= no chance of tackling it with an extinguisher. We see our duty as maintaining the safety of residents and staff.

Lastly I did NOT say we "ban" staff from fighting fires we just don't encourage them. There is a difference.

thanks to all replies.

Posted By Frank Hallett
Jack, many thanks for the compliment although I think that we may have got a couple of points slightly skewed.

Good evening Shaun. I am an ex-firefighter [Essex] and was one of the very first fire survival trainers in the UK to do flashover training, along with such illustrious people as John Smith, Alan Gissing, Gordon Batchelor and others; I left before ECFRS opened up the Wethersfield site fully. So I fully understand about attendance times, flashovers etc.

As you don't see the merit or logic in my earlier response, I'm going to have to attempt to further identify to you why I think that it's just wrong to promote unprotected and unsupported persons to attack fires, especially when everyone else has left the premises.

May I suggest that you read the FP[W] Regs, the soon to be extinct FP Act and the incoming RRFSO extremely thouroughly and attempt to identify where the intent to undertake aggressive or offensive firefighting is made explicit? The whole underlying thrust of the legislation, new or old, is the same - do your best to prevent a fire occuring; but, if it does, ensure that it is sufficiently controlled so that everyone is able to leave to a place of safety without unneccessary exposure to the fire &/or products of combustion?

I do not disagree that fire extinguishers should be provided; nor do I disagree that potential users should be trained.

It is my opinion that fire extinguishers should primarily be sited to enable defensive firefighting - to enable people to leave the premises - any other approach simply doesn't fit the stated intent of the legislation! And, of course, everyone who is likely to need to use an extinguisher should be trained in their use as defensive measures, not just selected persons.

Also, the unfortunately still relatively common expectation that Fire Wardens/Marshals should be expected to attack fires [to save the employer embarrassment or the insurers money] simply isn't supportable either - see my response from a few days ago. Training by itself doesn't make you fire resistant in any way - any attempt to attack fires has to be properly supported by a thorough Risk Control System - basically a properly provided for fire team.

Whilst it isn't mentioned in the fire legislation, any controller of premises will also have to undertake manual handling RA's to ensure that all persons likely to access the extinguishers can actually do it and move towards a place of safety without undue adverse effects from carrying the extinguisher.

Oh yeah, the report quoted re 80% of fires extinguished before the Fire Service arrive? It was an indepenant report by the Fire Extinguishing Trades that was initiated , researched and written by the FET. I have yet to see the full supporting data despite several requests when it was originally published. And there hasn't yet been any reaearch on whether those who attacked the fires have suffered any injury or ill-health as a consequence - perhaps there is a reearch topic for a dissertation there - independant preferably.

Here endeth the message that passeth all understanding.

Goodnight all, I'm sure that the subsequent responses will be interesting!

Frank Hallett

Posted By Frank Hallett
Good evening all.

Sorry to have hogged this thread Jack; I shall now put up my axe for something more peaceful!

Shaun, perhaps we should continue any further dicussions in private rather than publicly - there's every possibility that we may have more in common than at first appears?

May the dragons breath never touch you.

Frank Hallett