Posted By MichaelM I saw this in the Daily Record today. Shorts again. What is this new H&S Legislation? The Not Allowed To Wear Shorts On A Hot Day Regulations 2005? "SHORTS BAN IS RUBBISH Jul 15 2005 Binmen's boycott threat By Jade Beecroft A GROUP of binmen are threatening to boycott rubbish collection after they were banned from wearing shorts in this week's heatwave. Refuse collectors called a union meeting this week after two workers were rapped for wearing shorts on the job. And another man was formally disciplined for defacing council property after he cut the sleeves off his shirt to keep cool. Hundreds of bins could be left full in Dunfermline, Fife, after all 86 union members voted to work-to-rule. A spokesman for the Dunfermline Refuse Workers' union said: 'We've worn shorts in the summer for 15 years without a problem. 'Now the council won't budge because of new health and safety laws, so we begin a work-to-rule policy from Tuesday. 'This means we'll be lifting one bin at a time, not filling the lorries to the brim and not working overtime. 'We'll only empty bins with handles turned out on to the street, so hundreds will be left full.' Binmen claim they were told they would be sacked for gross misconduct for wearing shorts despite the 30C (86F) temperatures earlier this week. The dispute also involves 26 temporary workers who are reportedly being paid less than permanent staff. Fife Council's head of environmental services, Fraser Thomson, said refuse collectors were not allowed to wear shorts to work for health and safety reasons. He said: 'It was confirmed at a meeting that short trousers wouldn't be appropriate. Scrapes 'Staff working on bin lorries run a risk of getting cuts and scrapes, insect bites and sun damage, which could lead to serious problems such as skin cancer. 'Suitable protective clothing, which includes long trousers, can protect against these risks. 'Fife Council will continue to work with unions to ensure a safe working environment but we can't comment on individual cases" It would be interesting to get the real story! Where are my conkers, has anyone seen them? Michael

Posted By J Knight It's all very well banning shorts to protect their legs, but what about the rest of their bodies? I'm in favour of total cover, personally, using portable air to limit PM10s of course, oh, and everything has to be made of kevlar or (preferably) Nivachrom steel, John

Posted By MichaelM Thanks Ron I knew there would be a more reasoned side to the paper's story, that's why I posted it with: "It would be interesting to get the real story! Where are my conkers, has anyone seen them?" I too work for a LA H&S team and thought it was best to blast the conkers from the trees with the truth. Michael

Posted By MichaelM John That it, if you can't beat them join them! I am off to apply for the position of H&S adviser for newspaper. There were not enough references to conkers in the piece. There must be some decent stories of boy scouts / girl guides / bronwies / boys brigade etc. not trained to help old ladies cross the road who may have caused an accident after the old lady fell down after slipping on a conker! The said conker should have been cleaned up by the bin persons (allegedly)! Let's name and shame them all.

Posted By Jim Walker Taking the story on face value (which of course we cannot). If long trousers are a risk control control, then they are PPE; therefore the council should provide. Ditto shirts with sleeves. Most binmen I see do not seem to have overalls provided. I can't see how the employers can enforce this, UNLESS they already provide suitable workwear.

Posted By Renny Thomson Michael, Like Ron I have an interest in this situation (not only are Ron and I in the same office, but my bin gets emptied by the Dunfermline crews!) If the crews only lifted wheelie bins then it may be possible to risk assess that balistic trousers are not necessary. However they also lift waste in bags at the kerbside, special uplifts etc. Interestingly the "Work to Rule" means that they will now follow the rules that say only to move one full bin at a time. As a result we should see a reduction in musculo-skeletal injuries for next week. Our Fleet Services and VOSA will also be happy to know that there is no risk of vehicles being overloaded. All I've got to do is make sure I remember to put the handles of my bin facing the kerb!

Posted By MichaelM Jim / Ron / Renny H&S is never easy is it. At least as I don't live in Dunfermline, I can put my bin out any way I want and if I'm lucky, it isn't taken away to the next street on the back of the bin lorry. It may sound ridiculous but it has happened and that was before I moved to the LA and my H&S credentials were known. We are such bad people trying to stop people injuring or killing themselves or others. Ron / Renny Can you give me a reference for this HSE report please. Although not responsible for H&S in this area, I think the information could be very useful. Cheers Michael

Posted By JohnMacCarthy25 I've worked within the waste injury and although I can sympathise for the people wearing PPE/pants for rubbish collection it is a requirement to protect/reduce the risk of cuts from sharps. The pants are generally ballistics and are a great protector although I believe some Kevlar options are also available. What would you think if someone said it is too warm to wear a hard hat? Personally from the amount of sharps related injuries within this field, mainly due to bin bags being dark and not transparent, it is impossible to judge what is in the bags and therefore they should wear them and stop moaning. If they think they have it bad then try and wear a chainsaw protective trousers and see if they still moan. What is the world coming too, you protect them they complain, you don't protect them they sue you, fact.

Posted By Jim Walker Hi Ron, I see in the sunday times yesterday that "our Jeremy" described you as a H&S nazi.

Posted By J Knight Apologies for the flippant nature of my first post, I was being a bit ironic. However, being serious, there is an issue which isn't really being addressed here, which is about balancing risk. Yes, I can see the need for ballistic trousers, because unlike most journos (including dear old jezzah) I have had to work for a living in my time. However, in this weather surely the risk of heat exhaustion is a real factor to consider. HSE have just got their shiny new research report and are peddling it for all they're worth, and its a fair point that where they propose we dispose; however, are they underplaying the risks associated with physical work in hot weather? And isn't it up to us, as employers, to balance one set of risks against another? John

Posted By J Knight El Nino should be aware that shorts are fine for conkers provided padded kevlar gauntlets and eye protection are worn; in this weather eye protection also needs to be effective against UV, John

Posted By Ron Hunter Is "playing conkers in your shorts" in any way similar to the very popular game 'pocket billiards'? :p

Posted By angela westwood I'ts a funny old world innit? my old man is a lorry driver and has done various contract jobs for various waste removal firms/local authorities. you name it, he's carried out but one thing he does do is obey the local rules...........so if he has to drive and help the bin men he wears kevlar trousers (and his fellow bin men are quite happy to wear them too) if he has to transport hazardous waste - he follows the procedures - he's an ex soldier with a few years experience fighting for his country so you might expect - I'm tough I don't need to wear it. If a bullet hasn't killed me a little bit of dirt isn't going to harm me. You might think that I'm going off the point here but what I'm trying to say is in his case before he went even near a piece of corrugated asbestos or domestic waste (and before he came into contact with an army issue rifle) he was given training which included a very thorough explanation of the hazardous repercussions for not wearing the "kit" or obeying the procedures. In the end it's all down to the 4 Cs Angela

Posted By Merv Newman It would be very interesting to see the accident stats before, during and after the work to rule : Rule 1. Wear provided PPE Rule 2. only lift one bin at a time Rule 3. only handle properly positioned bins (handle out) Rule 4. Do not excede load limits ...