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Posted By Cr8r
We have acquired a multi storey building and for security, they want to put a digital lock on the double doors on the accesses to each floor. Trouble is, these are also the fire doors and only fire exits.
The doors would be able to be opened from inside as it would be similar to a domestic style front door latch, however, it would obviously hinder more than not having the doors locked at all, as is currently the position. Also, as soon as the door slams shut, you would need to tap the code in to gain access - how do the fire brigade feel about these locks?
Occupants will be staff and members of the public, only staff will have the codes.
Does anyone know if this is acceptable? I understand that doors should open outwards with one opener, all these doors are double, glazed fire doors which open in the correct direction.
We currently use these locks on individual rooms, but have not used them to secure whole floors.
Many thanks for any thoughts.
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Posted By Sean Fraser
Sounds like you have identified valid reservations against this idea - anything that relies on memory is going to fail, especially in an emergency situation like a fire when people are prone to panic at the slightest setback.
Question - why can't you use the old smash glass bar technology? That cannot be used for casual access in the same way that a push bar/lever or even key controlled door can be.
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Posted By Sean Fraser
Another thought which was going to be my first response - if you could combine the digital lock with the fire system, you may be able to have it unlock when the alarm is tripped, thereby allowing the first user to simply push it open.
Similar idea to the electro-magnetic door holders that allow fire doors to be held open during normal operations but when the alarm trips, the electricity is cut and the doors will automatically shut.
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Posted By Duncan
With regard to the Fire Door locks. My understanding is that if they are indeed fire doors/ emergency exit doors leading to a place of ultimate safety, they must be capable of being opened in one action without recourse to a key. also opening in the direction of travel.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Fire doors that require a glass to be broken or a key are banned to the best of my knowledge. It is not unusual for modern buildings to have electronic fire doors that can be opened from the inside manually and open automatically when the alarm is raised. Provided the system is tested at least once a week there should not be a problem.
Ray
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Posted By Messy
If you can exit the building without using the digital lock codes or without the use of a key, there should be no problem.
Fire doors should open in direction of travel, but MUST do so if > 50 persons would be expected to do so
As regards access for Brigade thru locked doors - No problem- They carry a 14lb master key in the shape of a sledgehammer!!
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Posted By Adam Jackson
As long as people can get out in an emergency via a single operation to open the door don't worry about how they get back in. Emergency exits are to get people out so if you have a control on how they are opened from the outside then that's fine.
If the fire brigade want to get in somewhere they will, whether the door is locked or not, or even whether there is a door there at all or not!
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Posted By Richard Mathews
We have an electronic access control system that uses a card that is scaned by a sensor to release the door lock. When the alarm sounds all the doors on the system unlock to allow easy and quick evacuation.
Richard
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Posted By John Webster
No problem with the digital locks on the outside. My only reservation would be the "domestic type latch" on the inside, which I take it will be small and require at least a quarter turn to open. I would rather see as minimum a normal door lever, and preferably a push pad or crash bar
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Posted By Adam Jackson
A fair point. If those with an eye for style think the crash-bars are ugly there are some quite nice palm crash-pad things that do the trick.
Remember, you need to have instructions on the fire door detailing how to open in an emergency and its easier to get hold of "push bar/pad to open" than pay to have specific ones made for your standard latches.
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Posted By Jenny Collis
I once had the experience of exiting through a fire exit into a stairwell, to find the route blocked but was unable to go back through the fire door to another route as the door had locked behind me. No other door would open from the stairwell.
A similar experience took place when a friend wanted to use the stairs when leaving to go home rather than the lift - she was finally released when the guard did his rounds.
Both of these experiences were outside of the UK - but frightening!!
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Posted By Cr8r
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I don't feel easy about locking these doors and it is just the latest in the security versus evacuation battle which has been raging for a while!
Jenny - your comment about being trapped and unable to retrace your steps is just the sort of worry I have, that and someone perhaps being injured and those outside not being able to get back in to help them due to panicking and punching in the wrong code / forgetting the code / not knowing the code. We are a further education establishment, and theft is a growing worry, as anyone can pose as (or be) a student and can well and truly case the joint, spot any weaknesses and then take advantage. The staff also have to feel secure, as ours is an open site and anyone can literally walk in off the street, hence their wish for locks on all floors.
However, due to the ever changing student population, I do not want anyone to be at increased risk due to security worries. Your ideas about linking the locks to the alarm are good, thank you.
Any more ideas - please keep 'em coming!
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Posted By Charles Robinson Tech SP
Linking fire doors to the fire alarm is fine provided that they fail to safety not all do.
Regulations state that they should release in the event of a control system failure, as many fire alarm systems are computer driven, they can crash. and therefore need to be driven through a fault relay and not just linked to fire alarm and mains fail.
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Posted By jackw.
Hi, so long as the doors "fail to safe" and are attached to the fire alarm system there is no reason why they shouldn't be locked.
Have you considered contacting your local fire service fire safety officer? He or she will be happy to advise you. This also gives weight to your argument with your managers - very few will go against fire service advice or direction.
Cheers.
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Posted By Lorraine Shuker
We have many of these keypad door locks and I am very concerned about their effect on access and egress in an emergency ~ even more so after reading this thread.
I did get our local Fire Safety Officer to look at them and his only concern was that they opened in the direction of travel to safe place and didn't need a code to do this.
It didn't occur to him or me that they would close behind and potentially trap someone in a stairwell. Some of them are on our basement doors where we archive confidential information.
His advise was to have the codes logged somewhere (ie with manager) to prevent them having to smash down every door with an axe when checking the building after an alarm activation. This would also delay aid to someone trapped in an area protected by these locks.
The answer is definately to have ALL door locks centrally linked and automatically released when alarm is activated.
However the cost of this versus the 'cheap and cheerful' £40 coded door lock is going to be tough to push through
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