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Posted By Carrie Ellerby
Does anyone know what kind of RPE I would need to be looking at for protection against potential legionella risks? We're just looking at someone cleaning out tanks of water or working over tanks of water which can't hold any kind of biocide.
Thanks,
Carrie
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Posted By Mark Talbot Speak to the people at 3M they can supply filter masks to MoD standards, which will be appropriate. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Q9KzYt3d9KP0I8yizeINwwz1y_IcFQEANMp1hQ!
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Posted By Adrian Watson
How do you propose to clean out the tanks?
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Posted By John Beadle
The cleaning of tanks that may be contaminated with legionella is not just a matter of selecting the correct mask. There are other major considerations to be taken into account. As it is a tank it will more than likely be a confined space. The persons entering the tank therefore will have to be fully trained and competent deal with the hazards they will encounter. I would strongly recommend that you use a specialist contractor to undertake this task.
If there was an incident whilst your staff were in the tanks then I believe the HSE will certainly be questioning competence of your company.
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Posted By Jeff Manion
Can the tanks be drained direct to waste.
Entering the tank may not be good idea will send document direct that may assist with confined space and selection use of RPE.
Still not good to enter tank.
JM
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Posted By Carrie Ellerby
They aren't large tanks to be entered so that isn't an issue. They are just quality testing humidity cabinets with a few inches of water in them. The problem occurs because they are at optimum temperature but aren't always cleaned out so regularly due to usage demand. Therefore it would be the user who may be at risk plus anyone emptying the water. I think that there is some kind of plug at the bottom of the tank which needs to be unscrewed for the water then to be bled to waste water.
I'll have a word with our Arco Rep. for best RPE for the job.
thanks
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Carrie
From your description of the cabinets, it doesn't sound as if you will be producing any aerosol so where is the legionella risk?
Paul
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Posted By Carrie Ellerby
It was raised in an L8 water risk assessment earlier this year. I presume the risk comes from when they are putting parts into the cabinets or splashing around trying to empty the tank.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Carrie,
I agree with Paul, no aerosol - no risk. Splashing about does not raise an aerosol in the breathing zone, unless you breath through your feet:)
Regards
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Posted By Lumpy
Adrian,
"splashing about does not cause an aerosol in the breathing zone" ?????? I am somewhat of an expert in microbiological containment (up to ACDP4) and infectious aerosols, and believe me when I say that splashing about will undoubtedly cause aerosols to fill the tank. Micororganisms are just that .... microscopic. You don't need to see big coulds to have an infectious aerosol.
I rarely get anoyed by the posts on here, but it realy winds me up when people offer advice that is outside their competency and would undoubtdly put people in danger if followed.
Lumpy.
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Posted By Carrie Ellerby
Thanks Lumpy,
The tanks must most definitely bring about aerosols as they are humidity tanks - testing parts against their resistance to humidity; evaporation of water - hence, water vapour (which I believe to be a breathable aerosol?)
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Carrie
While the water will evaporate, the legionella organisms will not. In order for them to get airborne, you must generate droplets and for any chance of infection, the droplets must be inhalable.
Water vapour is a gas not an aerosol.
Paul
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear Lumpy,
Unfortunately, my old son I do know what I am talking about. Whilst you may know about microbes, you appear not to have first hand experience of inspecting these tanks. I have.
To get an infectious dose, you would need to generate an aerosol that gets up to the breathing zone. INSPECTING a tanK IS UNLIKELY to generate such an aerosol, unless you are doing a dance.
Standing inside the spray zone of a cooling tower or blasting off surface debris may generate such an aerosol. But, then again this is not such a task.
If you wish to disagree, that is your right. Please do not attempt to cast doubt over my competence.
Regards
AK WATSOM
LLM MSc Dip Occ Hyg FFOH ROH FIOSH RSP MCIEH Chartered Environmental Health Practictioner MACGIH MAIHA
PS it you want my CV i'll email it to you.
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Posted By MichaelM
Adrian
You have gone from "doesn't create an aerosol" to "infectious dose".
I agree with lumpy. It would create an aerosol (having had many years experience working with ACDP 1, 2 and 3, and ACGM class 1 and 2).
Whether it would create an infectious dose would also be dependent on:
1) Whether it was present
2) What dose it was present in the tank (if present)
3) would the person be totally standing up or would they be crouched down and potentially get a lung full of concentrated legionella
4) Is the person performing the test immunocompromised.
Michael
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Michael,
Just for clarity. You need a means of mechanical generation to raise an aerosol. To get an aerosol in the respirable range you need to use a fair amount of power. To get it into the breathing zone, around the nose and mouth, you need more power. Walking in water will not generate an aerosol with sufficient power to raise an aerosol above your knees. People don't breath through their knees ie. RPE is not needed!
Furthermore if the occassional droplet gets within the breathing zone, it must contain sufficient organisms to cause disease. The minimum infectious dose for legionella sp, whilst not known is probably high, except for a few susceptable people.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By MichaelM
"The minimum infectious dose for legionella sp, whilst not known is probably high, except for a few susceptable people. "
Adrian
As this is the case, you are taking a mighty big chance. This statement undermines your whole response.
You are also making assumptions as to air movement in the area where the person will be taking the samples. I also have not indicated that knee breathers would be performing the sampling/testing.
Michael
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Michael,
Not quite, if the infectious dose for legionella were low we would have had a large bumber of cases by now. It should be remembered that prior to the mid 1980's the were a large number of wet cooling towers. These towers all required maintenace. To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected, there were no known cases of the maintenance staff contracting legionellosis from this work.
I do not and have not stated there is no risk, but lets get this back into proportion.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By MichaelM
Adrian
"if the infectious dose for legionella were low we would have had a large bumber of cases by now".
Not necessarily. If companies are employing people to ensure that appropriate treatments are being performed there will not necessarily be large numbers of actual growth.
The case where an air conditioning unit was pumping out air into the street caused cases where people were only walking past. What was the infectious dose?
Enjoying the debate.
Michael
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