Posted By MarkSMark Hello fellow safety experts. I have an almost perfect safety record- no riddors ever, very few accidents and very little time off. This is the problem- I want to reduce very little time off to no time off. I find it disturbing that people would take time off because they had an accident (unless of course it was a major accident). I think taking time off shows a poor work ethic and indicates they are malingerers. I am drafting an 'accident time off policy' and would like some suggestions. The basic concepts are that: All time off after an accident (unless major) will be deducted from holiday and recorded as holiday. Number of accidents and time off accidents form part of the individuals performance indicators. Managers pay reduction based on their team sickness performance. Annually worst 3 performers will go through disciplinary procedure. Would it be prudent to have a clause that if the employee signs a statement to say that his time off was nothing to do with his work accident, then his holiday will not be deducted? I appreciate your contributions Mark

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney Hi Mark I am not sufficiently practised to answer your question but I suspect it won't be long before an employment specialist enters the fray with the knowledge you seek. My reason for joining the thread is to mention a case I was involved in recently whereby en employer did something vaguely similar to your own proposals and ended up having to shell out a five figure sum in a successful claim brought against them, my own participation was one of happening to be working on H&S documentation for them and the client said; 'oi Charley do you think my idea would be a good one?' and as mentioned earlier it was (for the want of a more suitable word) 'similar'. I merely said that before putting this idea into practice it would be best to speak with an employment specialist; regrettably he did not, and has suffered the consequence, in addition he has had to refund large amounts of previously deducted funds from the employees which has been quite considerable. I mean no disrespect; you may well have that specialist knowledge and would not be wishing to offer you this scenario as a fair evaluation as each case can only be determined on its own extraordinary and generally unique merits. I wish you well with your ultimate decision. Charles

Posted By rjhills Re the "malingering workforce". Remember the Health & Safety @ Work Act 1974?? Every employer SHALL ENSURE the health safety and welfare of his employees?? Have you ever thought what your workforce thinks of you or your management?? The idea of accident/lost time monitoring is in my opinion, NOT designed to penalise employees when they have an accident at work! You do not say whether the employees are unionised, I would think not from what you are saying. Suggest you look at accidents in a manner designed to eliminate causes,(you know, work wear, trip hazards, unsafe practices), which as you know a responsiblity of management. Also I would hazard that there is little consultation in your organisation, otherwise ideas such as docking pay for accident time off would be a non starter! Agree with previous contributer that workforce could have a good claim against ill thought out policies such as these

Posted By Rob Yuill Mark, I believe to draft such a policy is playing with fire; I presume from the tone of the post that the workforce is not represented by a trade union. I could understand your problem if "lost time" was significant and was having an affect on the company's finances; but that does not appear to be the case. It is far better to introduce a policy encompassing sickness absence and accident lost time; but such a policy MUST be positively drafted and be FAIR! To penalise the workforce because they take time off after an accident (that you seem to assume is their fault), is only asking for a rapid rise in "accidents" and resultant claims. Rgds Rob

Posted By Kieran J Duignan 'No' is the short simple answer to the question you ask. To get a reliable longer answer, pay an independent analyst to investigate and report on the total net cost to shareholders arising directly and indirectly from your interventions to the company, in terms of wasted management time, errors due to distraction of employees and breach of health and safety arising from the stress you generate.

Posted By Tony O'Keefe Mark, It is good to have you back with us after your recent absence, it is a shame to see that your treatment has not helped with your condition. Regarding your present predicement might I suggest that you book back in to the clinic and ponder the plight of your employees whilst under some mind bending medication, I am sure that things will look a lot clearer to you and the direction to take will become apparent and as this is not an accident you have received at work you should not lose out financialy unless of course you have received a bump on the head or two whilst at work. Though reading through the lines there are many employers who have to fill out riddor reports following accidents of a very minor nature because some employees milk it and make a mountain out of a mole hill, which is an issue that does require serious attention as this is not only damaging to the health and safety culture of an employer but also costs companies in the UK a great deal of money and in addition it also puts an extra burden on the NHS. Keep Taking The Pills Tony

Posted By Cr8r Mark - welcome back! It surprises me that you allow your workforce to take holidays. Do you pay them for this absence too? With a company this generous, it is no surprise your workforce are walking all over you.

Posted By Robert S Woods Mark, At my previous workplace we used to make people we thought were malingering wear the Skivers hat. It was a white top hat with the word skiver on it. It was kept in a damp cellar when not in use, which wasn't very often. The felt material absorbed the moisture and became quite mouldy and smelly. I remember once one of our employees a pregnant, employee who also happened to be a disabled, asthmatic with learning difficulties took time off claiming the lead and isocyanates in the paint she was using might harm her and her unborn child. When she came back to work she had to wear the hat for a fortnight before we sacked her on the grounds of capability. After this example was set the number of malingerers dropped to none, which I saw as a great success. The down side to this success is that the zero number of malingerers was seen by some as a calamity. They attributed the minimisation of skiving to the fact that the whole workforce left and the inability to attract new staff due to the harsh management regime. Directors eh never satisfied. I am now as a result of the company going into receivership looking for a new post where my talents will be better appreciated. If anyone has any suggestions please get in touch.

Posted By B Wilkes Mark I assume, this is a joke but I think an important point is raised here relating to time of work. I agree with you that incentives are useful to encourage people not to take time off. The idea of punishments encourage people to actually go off for longer periods of sickness and get signed off by the GP. You will reduce your short term frequent absences but increase you longer term absences. I think that you can challenge GP sick notes at your peril(!) as the employee will have you off to the tribunal ASAP. You sound like you have a good safety record and I would put my efforts into finding all of the unreported sickness and aches pains in your employees which might show you that you problems (particularly MSDs's) that you had not imagined. As we all know H&S is a proactive not a reactive science. As one Occ Health nurse told me...it is the people who don't take time off that you need to worry about..it is those who tend to drop down dead! Regards Barry

Posted By AL We stopped all accidents by shooting every third employee as a warning, it worked a treat! AL

Posted By Calum R Cameron MMMMMMM-Mr Moderator!!!!!!!!1

Posted By Gareth Bryan that's one hell of a sssstammer you've got there Calum

Posted By J Knight Ah yes Phil, but my old boss insisted on writing a 'Sudden Death' policy, to deal with those inconsiderate persons who don't give proper notice of their intentions, John

Posted By Stuart Nagle Mark, in essence I agree entirely with your intended wishes to stop time off due to accidents. Unfortunately, as you quite rightly exemplify, major accidents... you know the type, the odd amputation here and there, broken legs and so on do have an awful habit of interrupting the work stream. Needless to say it's difficult enough getting staff these days let alone keeping them in the workplace. So I would recommend you press ahead with your course of action, but perhaps you could consider 'rehabilitation in the workplace'. Don't let the buggers sit around at home watching the telly, call round, make them an offer they can't refuse, and take em back to work immediately to perform some menial task that no one else wants to do, know what I mean.... This way you will reduce your accident lost time further, as was your stated aim, and will not have all the hassle of dealing with the wages department idiots over hours, rates, holiday pay and all that nonsense. A bonus is you can then add to your achievements by having introduced a 'worker rehabilitation scheme' in the best interests of employees and the company.... Good eh! Deducting holiday can be a little bit problematic for lost time due to accidents, particularly with directly employed staff of your company, however, fell free with the agency staff, part-timers paid cash in hand and any, shall be say... none legal types...but then you should get away with not paying the last group holidays anyway, so if you are paying it, stop it now and save the company a fortune.... know what I mean... Certainly, since you have obviously gone to all the trouble to get first aid boxes and the rest, you don't expect your staff to go sick over silly little gashes and cuts, or over bad backs even, all a ruse usually to get something done at home or sod off on holiday for a few days. No mark. You stick to your guns, your doing a fine job my boy.... By the way how many persons do have working in the explosives factory at the moment? Stuart

Posted By Paul Adams Thank Crunchie it's Friday. TTFN

Posted By Lynchy Mark I always like to read your ideas - make me feel as though I need to toughen up a bit!! Why, even as I write we have one guy off with a busted ankle caused by a fall at work but now I see the light and I think he could easily get into work and do some hobbling around in the yard if only he would try harder! He's a malingerer obviously and I'm going to speak to the boss first thing Monday and get him sorted out proper! Thanks Lynchy

Posted By Dave Wilson Hope you were not at work using the company computer at the time you wrote this, if so dont forget to 'dock' your own wages for having enjoyment on company time, you pesky maligerer you. its 5 in the morning had a long day yesterday and went to bed around 8.30 woke up at 4 pretending to be an owl I'm bored!

Posted By John Murgatroyd The only thing worrying about MSM and his comments, to me anyway, is that he sounds very like my general manager......how many others on here feel the same ?