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Posted By Tyler
All,
What is your opinion on allowing workers on the shop floor (FMCG factory with all the usual factory hazards) using personal stereos (with ear pieces) when working.
At the moment a factory radio with speakers located throughout the factory is used. However, once the new (lower) Noise at Work Regs limits come into force the radio may need to be switched off and I can see the use of the personal stereos being a problem. I wish to head this one off at the pass.
My view is that they should be discouraged (if pressed I will divulge why etc). But what is your opinion?
What solutions do you have to combatting the stoppage of the Radio (and not allowing subsequent use of the personal stereos) causing a morale issue amongst the team.
I guess this will be an issue most of you will have to (or have) address(ed) at some time. So any help is appreciated.
Thanks!
Tyler
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Posted By Renny Thomson
The New Guidance for the Noise at Work Regs, suggests that you should take the effect of personal stereos etc into consideration when calculating the noise exposure at work. In effect it does not matter whether it is work that causes the exposure or not, it needs to be included.
A solution may be to issue hearing protection with in-built radios (noise limited of course). I believe Peltor do some.
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Posted By Rob T
Hi Renny,
I haven't seen that bit of the Noise regs but I believe you. If that is the case then Health and Safety regulations have finally reached insanity! Does this mean that there have to be limiters on car radios (if driving for work), if working from home do the noise police have to come round and limit your CD players/TV sets.
A personal stereo is just that - personal - and as such it is entirely up to the individual how loud they have it. How can you enforce the TWA or peak levels when the stereo's have a PERSONAL volume switch?
(Renny this isn't a go at you - just against the spreading madness of regs that we as professionals have to put our names to).
On the original point as asked - I would be against personal radios etc. particularly if you are in an area with fork-lift trucks, overhead cranes etc. You need to be able to hear warnings or alarms.
Surely your music being broadcast isn't up to the action levels at the ear? Are you just taking measurements from the speakers themselves? Try using personal monitors on individuals over the day (including lunchtimes) and see what levels turn up.
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Posted By Tyler
Thanks for the information regarding the radio hearing defenders.
What about if, following the turning off of the factory radio and other engineering measures, we manage to reduce the noise level / personal exposures to the point where we do not need hearing protection. However, putting the radio back on would mean we are (again) above the action level. What could we do regarding the morale issue then?
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Posted By Merv Newman
I once had to stop employment of a 22 year old man who had already lost a significant part of his hearing. He attributed this to constant use of a walkman. Fortunately this was before the "discrimination against handicapped people" legislation came in to force.
I don't like walkmans in the workplace : wearers seem to cut themselves off from the real world. I don't like portable phones in the workplace : the reflex to reply to the ring is too ingrained and talking on the phone while working is as bad as when driving a car.
Workplace Muzak doesn't have to be loud, if you want it install more speakers so as to reach all corners, but more gently.
Merv
Last year I came across a real tough assembly-line work group : mating van engines to the front axle and so forth. Shaved heads, tattoos, tongue rings, ripped tee-shirts. THEIR radio was playing classical music - Beethoven's fifth, Wagner's Ride of the valkyries, Mussorsgski's Hall of the mountain kings (or was it "night on a bare mountain" ?) Whatever. Music with muscle. And they worked to the rhythm of the music. I bought the CD to play in the car. Brilliant.
Merv
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Posted By Tyler
Merv,
I am with you on this one. At the moment my feeling is that the speakers are too far apart and to ensure that everyone hears the radio they are turned up high adding (considerably in some cases) to the noise burdon. This is most apparant when the plant shuts down but the radio keeps playing.
If we had more speakers strategically placed (ie near the actual workstations) then the noise burdon would not be increased as much.
I dislike the use of ear pieces (and mobiles on the shop floor)for exactly the same reasons as you. Also, the research into the effects on the ear (as a result of using ear pieces)is a little alarming as the 'noise' is channelled directly into the ear.
The point made regarding the level of noise where the person works as appose to where the speaker is situated is a valid one. However, some people are positioned nearer to the (loud) speaker than others and as such are indeed exposed to more 'noise'.
It would lead us into a difficult situation to remove, from the shop floor, the radio all together. So if any of you have any more solutions, let me know.
Tyler
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Posted By MarkS
I have to agree with Rob T, this is borderline barking.
The live entertainment and broadcast industries have been given a two year stay on the implementation of the new regulations, whilst no-one is prepared to admit it, this is largely because the legislators failed to take in to account the effect of the legislation on this industry sector and no-one has any sensible idea as to how the industry will meet the new levels.
This will effect, clubs , pubs, school discos, weddings, choirs, theatre, opera, ballet, orchestral concerts, rock concerts, festivals, everywhere where the whole purpose of an event is to create sound.
Amongst the control measures suggested by a large organisation within the industry is a suggestion that we educate composers to write music with lower db peaks.
Step forward Messrs Beethoven and Hendrix for re-education......
Say it quietly but this will descend in to an un-enforceable and un-necessarily expensive farce.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Let us not forget in all this that the noise exposure from personal stereos is often above the 90dba figure, I've read an effective 100+ in some sources. The factory radio seems a better option if you want to look at it from the overall risk standpoint and the cost of extra speakers could be argued fairly simply on the basis of staff morale. For the employees with you currently you will not be able to separate the personal stereo effects from the general factory noise exposures so hearing loss claims will include this exposure at work.
As for the type of music the only problem I've had was when Wogan was not available on the shop-floor and was replaced with Radio 1 for a week. I Gather Prince Charles' cows enjoy being milked to the sound of his show. No accounting for tastes.
Bob
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Posted By Alison WR
Ten percent of young men listen to music via headphones at 110dB(A) - hitting the current occupational limit within five minutes.
The average listening level for males is 97dB.
That info is from research published several years ago - so exposures may already be higher.
Headphone noise will always be 3-6dB louder than the equivalent loudspeaker exposure, and wanted sound must be at least 10dB above background.
In regard to music and entertainment:
The legislators knew about the industry problems, and the absence of compliance with the 1989 laws. They did not accept that as a valid excuse for allowing exposures that are orders of magnitude higher than in compliant sectors. Leqs of 105 are normal, and 120 is not as uncommon as it should be - at that level, you aren't working out how many seconds you have before you hit the limit, you are working out how many years' exposure you clock up in a single session. Some people will survive that experience with little harm. Good luck to them. Many will find their hearing is destroyed.
To produce industry guidance, HSE is facilitating two working groups with competent and committed representation from across the industry. Membership of the 'live' group - includes reps from the GFTU, MU, BECTU, Equity, BBC, MOD, ABO, PSA, ABTT, SOLTMA, ROH, ENO, Arup Acoustics, BBPA, BEDA, WCC, etc.
Beethoven and Hendrix - v amusing. Any composer-in-residence can say how much they learned about the capabilities of the instruments and performers. Any orchestral musician can name umpteen pieces where the pain makes playing intolerable, or the noise density makes their contribution irrelevant.
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Posted By Merv Newman
Does anyone know if, for example, Mick Jagger is deaf ?(and I really can't think right now (I've had my glass of wine this evening) of the names of any other "musicians")
That's it for tonight. It's my turn to cook dinner, so I'm off. (flu-free (I hope) chicken breasts wrapped in parma ham with chopped sage leaves, home grown broccoli leaves and carrots, mashed potatoes with parsley and basil). And a glass or two of white wine.
Open the cage.
Merv
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Posted By J Knight
Merv,
Don't know about Mick Jagger, but I read many years ago that Pete Townsend is,
John
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Posted By MarkS
Alison
Of course I bow to your greater understanding of the subject and I hope you will forgive my flippancy on a matter of considerable import to many working in the industry.
You are quite correct, legislators have been aware of the problems of compliance with the 89 levels in the entertainment industry for many years, and in the main they have chosen to ignore them. Guidance as to how to deal with such issues has been, at best, scant and policing, despite some isolated protestations to the contrary, largely ineffective, just go in to any popular high street bar.
The government has been required to implement a European directive and that is just what they have blindly done. Responsible bodies within the industry have asked the authorities how they are expected to comply with the new regs and the authorities have merely passed that hot potato back with a two year moritorium to enable the effected sector to come up with a solution.
The organisations that you list and many others, are now expending substantial sums to meet a target which most, privately, seem to see as largely unachievable however laudable it may be. That is not to say that the potential for harm to workers in the industry is any way to be given less consideration but that government should perhaps have given more thought to the problem before introducing the legislation, despite the two year stay.
Just as a matter of interest how are other countries dealing with this issue, any solutions or still talking ?
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Posted By Brett Day
What's the betting that we are the only ones trying to implement it in the entertainment industry ??
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Posted By Tyler
Hmmm,
This thread seems to have gone off at a tangent.
Although the debate regarding the entertainment industry and noise is a worthwhile one and is interesting to follow in it's own right, it was not the subject of this thread.
Every time a new posting is made to this thread I have a look at it as I am thinking somebody else may have an opinion or even a solution to the problems faced in the workplace regarding the use of radios and noise.
While I can understand the link (pubs and clubs are workplaces and have a problem with sound systems) the main discussion point is when the ambient noise levels are already of concern and that the radios add to this, perhaps meaning some people's exposures exceed the new action levels.
Now, That's my little rant over!
Does anyone have any solutions or other opinions?
Tyler
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Personal stereos should not be allowed as the employer than has no control over the volume. As Alison has said, the volume from the stereo is likely to be at least 10 dB(A) above ambient and damaging exposures are possible. Is it practicable to provide personal earpieces connected to your factory system as this would enable you to limit the maximum volume?
Paul
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